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Author Topic: Need more help with UI...  (Read 3960 times)

Worblehat

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Need more help with UI...
« on: April 07, 2019, 04:54:44 pm »

Making the thread topic general since I'll probably keep running into issues like this...

Current problem: attempting to set up a militia. I made four axes, chainmails, helms, gauntlets, high boots, and shields. Drafted four dwarves into a squad. Tweaked the default Metal Armor uniform to allow any shields (I made mine out of wood). Applied that uniform to each of the four dwarves. Assigned the barracks to the squad and set them to train there. Set the schedule for every month to be Train, 2 Minimum. Set the squad alert status to Active/Training.

Result: Initially, the commander and #2 dwarf equipped axe, chainmail, helm, and shield (not gauntlets or boots) and went to the barracks to do Individual Combat Drills and a subsequent demo of their lack of skills. Dwarves #3 & 4 continued doing eligible civilian tasks until I deactivated all of their labor preferences, at which point they did nothing.

Attempted fix: Remove dwarves #3 and 4 from squad, re-draft them, re-assign their uniforms, toggle the month's training schedule off then on again. For the gauntlets/boot thing, I attempted to manually assign everyone's existing mittens and shoes to dump on the theory that they need to remove their cloth/leather outer layer in order to put on the armor layer.

Result: Dwarves #3 and 4 became Recruits and equipped their axe, chainmail, helm, and shield, and began training. The commander went to their bedroom with No Job (they're not sleeping, just loafing). Dwarf #2 ceased to be a Recruit and is also loafing somewhere. Nobody has dumped their mittens/shoes, so I have no idea if my current approach will someday lead to properly armored dwarves, or if I need to do something else to get them to wear their damned gauntlets/boots...  :-\

What's the trick to getting everyone in a squad to actually be in the squad? Is it the "minimum 2" part of the training schedule that's screwing everything up? The AWOL dwarves (in both attempts) are listed as "No active order" when I view them on the military screen.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2019, 04:59:20 pm »

Don't set 2 minimum. Keep it as default. It's somewhat misguided advice that causes more issues than it solves (and basically acts as "2 maximum" which is why no-one else is training).

Only things with military you need to workaround right now are:
i) Uniform clashes - Disable mining, woodcutting and hunting on your squad members.
ii) Clothing layer issues - Always set to "replace clothing".
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 10:03:24 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Worblehat

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2019, 12:53:39 am »

Thank you, that worked! Four dwarves, now wearing nothing but armor (ouch!), training as intended. Though the thought of wearing armor without any cloth padding underneath is extremely weird. I guess if the dwarves don't mind, I shouldn't either...  ???

I was loosely following the advice in https://df-walkthrough.readthedocs.io/en/latest/chapters/chap08-military.html, which is where I got the "minimum" (apparently maximum) 2 setting. I don't know if they're active on this forum, but might be worth tweaking the guide a bit if they're so inclined.
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Ulfarr

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2019, 05:25:06 am »

While misleading the "minimum x" command can be quite usefull later on when you will be more familiar with the DF's military, so don't disregard it completely.

When making a schedule for a squad you can give them multiple orders and in this case setting a "minimum" is neccesary. To give you an example you can set a schedule where each month 6 dwarves will be training, 2 will be guarding a location (through barrows) and 2 will be free to socialize, work, pray etc. The dwarves will then rotate in each position by themselves.

The "replace clothing" is also misleading, it means to replace their civilian clothing. If you modify their military uniform to include clothing they will try to equip them as well. Do note that this can lead to some uniform problems, like dwarves not equiping boots because they wear socks. If I'm not mistaken coats, capes, shirts and pants can be safely worn along with their armor. 
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So the conclusion I'm getting here is that we use QSPs because dwarves can't pilot submarines.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2019, 08:12:41 am »

While misleading the "minimum x" command can be quite usefull later on when you will be more familiar with the DF's military, so don't disregard it completely.
Oh yes, for sure.
It's just a shame that all the beginners guides seem to quickly break off on a tangent for advanced techniques, min-max tips and other workarounds for somewhat "inefficient" (in the minds of the author) mechanics. Whereas new people just want a simple ABC of what to do (and the absolute essential bug workarounds). 
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Starver

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2019, 08:32:33 am »

Some of these 'bugs' are emergent interactions of deliberate micro-actions, rather than wrong in and of themselves. Some. It is seemingly difficult to untie some of the compound knots without untying the basic necessities and redoing them differently but to the original purpose.


But there's a lot to the military that I rarely work with¹, myself, I find it just easier to avoid direct conflict and resort to more mechanical/logistical counters to aggression (that's most of the fun, for me; YMMV). I've yet to send an outgoing military expedition, though, and I suppose I ought to prepare for that.


¹ I generally can armour/arm and set up scheduled patrols (I think, it's mostly just walking my walls, and they seem to do it) and training (probably not efficiently - though I do a good line in ammo-preserving ranges that up the crossbow skills nicely, while others are sparring). But my most useful sneaker-detector is a spare non-grazer handily stationed in a pasture/fortification, and some form of switchable trap-path to 'engage' the enemy. The military is mostly a side-effect.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2019, 11:09:18 am »

Wait with sending militia out of the embark until the raiding crash bug is fixed, which probably will happen during the post Villains release bug fixing phase.
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Bumber

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2019, 04:31:45 am »

I was loosely following the advice in https://df-walkthrough.readthedocs.io/en/latest/chapters/chap08-military.html, which is where I got the "minimum" (apparently maximum) 2 setting. I don't know if they're active on this forum, but might be worth tweaking the guide a bit if they're so inclined.
That guide has it wrong, even from when it was an issue. It was supposed to be 5 sets of "Training, 2 minimum" so the whole squad would split into pairs. It's going to be really slow training if only 2 dwarves can spar at a time.
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Worblehat

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2019, 11:21:07 pm »

Yeah, I re-read the Training page on the wiki last night and caught the 2-dwarf squads recommendation there. Which explains why my 4-dwarf squad has never sparred, just demonstrations or individual combat drills. I had thought maybe there was a bit of clever coding there, raw recruits doing safe things to build skills to a certain threshold before sparring, but nope, just the overseer doing it wrong.  :P

So, a few new questions while I'm here. The short version being "So how does all this newfangled stuff that's appeared since 2009 (caverns and visitors, so far) actually work?" :geezer_emoji:

Now that I've hit these caverns, I get a bunch of visitors wanting to be monster hunters. I think I understand the mechanics here - they count as "Visitors" for the Visitor Cap until I grant their petition to stay, at which point they cease to be Visitors and more of them will soon appear. In which case I should drop the Visitor Cap to zero as soon as I have as many of these dudes as I want (which is probably zero, but I accepted a couple already just to see how things worked). I guess I could make a usable passage into the caverns and have them suicide-explore for me, but I don't see any reason to do that right now.

Are there useful Visitors such that I should keep the Visitor Cap above zero in the hope that one will show up? Looking at the wiki, they seem interesting from a RP perspective, but none look particularly useful. Maybe scholars once I start up a library, but that seems like a pretty low priority. Though I thought that about temples too until I saw all the "can't pray" negative thoughts...

Looking at the wiki, my impression of taverns is that they're more trouble than they're worth. Dwarves are happy eating and drinking in the dining hall without it being a tavern, so why risk over-drinking? Am I missing anything?

Ah, almost forgot - married couples and beds. Google turned up a thread from 2014 saying that one bed is fine for a bedroom owned by a married couple, but I noticed one of my dwarves sleeping in the dormitory (on the floor, next to a bed, for some reason). Their spouse was on the tile containing their bed but was not sleeping at the time that I noticed this. So has the game changed such that couples should have two beds in their quarters? Or maybe that one dwarf is just unusually stupid even by dwarven standards?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2019, 12:19:02 am »

Dwarves dance, sing, play weird instruments, socialize and spout poetry in taverns. Only children do that in the dining rooms (and everywhere else). It causes (mostly) good thoughts. No longer does being in a legendary dining room cure all ills (and will continue to be that way even after stress gets balanced properly - it's a bit off right now).

There's no real downside. People will eat and drink in a tavern without the aid of a tavern keeper (which currently is a somewhat lethal optional extra). They can also socialize and make friends (except that socializing and making friends isn't working well, but best get into the swing of things, there are updates and bug fixes on the horizon).

As for visitors, padding up your squads with mercs can be good. They even bring their own equipment.

Alternatively set all their equipment to dump and leave them whimpering naked in the tavern while you melt their stuff. Either works.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 12:23:39 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 02:30:23 am »

Monster hunters are a pain. I don't think they do anything until they've petitioned. Once they have, they may amble down to the caverns if they feel like it (it's apparently more interesting to read your books, pray in your temple, and socialize in your tavern: don't be surprised if it takes half a year of keeping the fortress vulnerable to the critters below before the bugger decides to haul his lazy butt downstairs, walk around for a few minutes, and then return back up because he's hungry/thirsty/tired.
Once they DO actually get down there, they cause additional danger to the fortress beyond keeping a passage open in that they spread body parts around the cavern, which causes your dorfs to rush there to pick them up. Occasionally the body parts are from some "horrible" critter killed, but often the parts are from the monster hunter itself, luring your dorfs to the location of the monster hunter's killer...
Also, any merc types, including monster hunters, tend to have crappy equipment and no armor use training whatsoever (so if they DO have armor they move at a snail's pace). Monster hunters can't be used for anything apart from littering the cavern, as you can't assign them to any duties. They probably never would petition for citizenship even in the unlikely case of surviving for two years.

Regular mercs petitioning become residents and can be used as militia squad members in all positions except leader (which requires a citizen). They never petition for citizenship. Apart from this leading to them not being usable for anything but militia, it also means they're rather likely to go nuts as they're incapable of mood balancing efforts in the form of trinket collection (requires hauling) or any type of crafting. They can read books, though.

Petitioning performers do nothing useful for two years (they've been observed to harvest crops *extremely* occasionally), after which they petition for citizenship. Once they're citizens they're on an equal footing with everyone else, so you can assign jobs to them. Some have had a useful career before taking up performing, but you have access to no information about them when they petition (Legends Viewer coupled with regular exports of Legends Mode info can provide info). Performers sort of act as migrants with a two year buffer period, so their main use would be to provide you with a multi racial fortress.

Petitioning scholars behave like performers, apart from them researching for two years before petitioning for citizenship. After that they're yours, just like performers.

Note that it's not unusual for residents to go bonkers during the two year waiting period, and you can't do anything about it as you can't control them and you can't assign them to mood enhancing tasks.

Taverns, as mentioned, are basically mandatory. Just don't appoint poisoners (a.k.a. tavern keepers and tavern performers) unless you're prepared to deal with over serving (if you want deaths to over serving you probably won't get it much, while if you don't want it you'll probably do, based on what I've seen reported).

I haven't heard anything about changes to couple beds. Once I've "encouraged" couples to marry they'll get a bedroom with a single bed.

Finally, don't send out raiding parties or your fortress will eventually die from corruption of militia equipment resulting in DF crashing. The only known way to avoid the crash after corruption has occurred is to disband all militia and never appoint any new one, with the attendant issues regarding dealing with insane visitors and camping invaders. Raiding is simply FUBAR, although it takes a while before it bites you (it took half a year or so before the cause of almost all crashes with the current version was identified).
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Ulfarr

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 03:56:48 am »

Yeah, I re-read the Training page on the wiki last night and caught the 2-dwarf squads recommendation there. Which explains why my 4-dwarf squad has never sparred, just demonstrations or individual combat drills. I had thought maybe there was a bit of clever coding there, raw recruits doing safe things to build skills to a certain threshold before sparring, but nope, just the overseer doing it wrong.  :P


But there is, your recruits need to have at least 3 levels of "fighter" before they start sparring. Until then they will keep doing demonstration and individual drills.

You can find more info in the following threads if you are interested but it's a bit scattered between the posts and it's more about "optimizing" training so it isn't strictly necessary to read them.

Wrestling as start for military training
Military Training !!Science!!
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So the conclusion I'm getting here is that we use QSPs because dwarves can't pilot submarines.

Worblehat

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2019, 07:56:27 pm »

Thanks everyone, much appreciated! The dwarves do seem to like the tavern - quite a flood of socializing once I set it. It's a bit odd that the starting seven have 4-7 random skill levels in Poet/Speaker/Dancer, while the migrants have nothing.

I've almost got the fort working the way I want; the remaining issue is the dwarves failing to use stockpiles properly. I've made a bunch of prepared meals to fight the occasional "dejection after a lack of decent meals" bad thoughts. The original drink stockpile next to the dining room has always allowed prepared food, but they never put any there as far as I can tell. I followed the wiki to the letter to make a prepared-food-only stockpile in an expansion to the dining room pantry. So far the dwarves have moved an empty bin and empty barrel there, nothing else.

The other stockpile issue is my expanded ore/bars stockpile. It's set to allow a max of 72 bins, and I've had my woodworker cranking out bins for most of the season, yet the dwarves carefully tiled it in a single layer of coke and iron bars... From what I can tell, quite a few bins elsewhere in the fort are completely empty. And I don't know where the newly constructed bins have been going. I'll keep making more, but I don't think the ore/bar stockpile problem is caused by a lack of bins.

I also noticed that the kitchen and brewery disagree with the Kitchen screen of the stockpiles menu. The latter says I have a variety of surface plants to brew or cook; the workshops insist that I don't. And the stockpiles stocks screen says I have rock nuts, but the stockpiles kitchen screen and the quern workshop menu say I don't. I've had almost a complete season of output, with quite a lot of quarry bush leaves cooked; surely I should have an excess of rock nuts to get started on soap finally?

Since I've been worried about bags causing a bottleneck (workshops say they don't; bag input is in white, plant input is in red), do I need to worry about the loom pulling threads from the hospital stocks? I'd hope the latter would be reserved and unavailable to any non-hospital use.

Re: the couple beds thing I mentioned - I think it was user error again. I noticed during the squad split that the starting squad had a non-default sleep setting because I misunderstood what those settings meant. They're both back to "sleep in room at will" so hopefully that will end the random naps in the old dorm.  :P
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Bumber

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2019, 10:04:04 pm »

I followed the wiki to the letter to make a prepared-food-only stockpile in an expansion to the dining room pantry. So far the dwarves have moved an empty bin and empty barrel there, nothing else.
Did you accidentally disable "Allow Plant/Animal" under Additional Options?

The other stockpile issue is my expanded ore/bars stockpile. It's set to allow a max of 72 bins, and I've had my woodworker cranking out bins for most of the season, yet the dwarves carefully tiled it in a single layer of coke and iron bars... From what I can tell, quite a few bins elsewhere in the fort are completely empty. And I don't know where the newly constructed bins have been going. I'll keep making more, but I don't think the ore/bar stockpile problem is caused by a lack of bins.
There needs to be free space in the stockpile to add a new bin. Try dumping an empty bin onto the stockpile, then unforbidding it.

I also noticed that the kitchen and brewery disagree with the Kitchen screen of the stockpiles menu. The latter says I have a variety of surface plants to brew or cook; the workshops insist that I don't. And the stockpiles stocks screen says I have rock nuts, but the stockpiles kitchen screen and the quern workshop menu say I don't. I've had almost a complete season of output, with quite a lot of quarry bush leaves cooked; surely I should have an excess of rock nuts to get started on soap finally?
Some plants may need to be processed at a farmers workshop first.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

anewaname

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Re: Need more help with UI...
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2019, 11:16:28 pm »

With regards to the binning of metal bars; while a herd of dwarfs will arrive to put a single item on each empty tile of the stockpile, the binning process can take many months, because only one dwarf will do the work, and because the bars weigh so much. These two steps will repeat in a cycle:
1) if there is no empty bin associated with the stockpile, one will be assigned and carried to the stockpile
2) if there is an empty bin, a dwarf will walk around, collecting up to 10 metal bars, then walk to the bin to fill it
Those steps will repeat until the stockpile is filled. With 72 tiles, that stockpile might take a year to be binned. You will be able to see the job associated with binning that stockpile on the jobs menu, and see the items associated the job (just a bin, or a bin and some bars).
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