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Author Topic: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Ironhand - Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 461362 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2130 on: September 17, 2020, 03:06:38 pm »

Maybe a necromancer tower in a goblet.
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Starver

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2131 on: September 17, 2020, 03:07:41 pm »

Procedurally-generated symbology!

"This is an image of a dwarf wrapped round a sock with a table balanced on his head at a jaunty angle." - obviously a Depot-related stockpile.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2132 on: September 17, 2020, 04:25:48 pm »

Bloody hatchet.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2133 on: September 17, 2020, 04:38:00 pm »

The best part is that even if the player manages to figure out what objects are even being represented, they'll still have to look at Legends to figure out what they actually mean! Muahahahahaha!
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2134 on: September 17, 2020, 04:43:18 pm »

The best part is that even if the player manages to figure out what objects are even being represented, they'll still have to look at Legends to figure out what they actually mean! Muahahahahaha!
It's a plot to get everyone back to the keyboard again.
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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2135 on: September 17, 2020, 06:48:31 pm »

It's a UI element though, your dwarves will never see it. The player does. ;)
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Rekov

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2136 on: September 17, 2020, 10:49:00 pm »

I think the caduceus has been used as a symbol of medicine long enough to be recognizable. The Wikipedia page that DeKaFu linked describes incidents going back thousands of years. While these are somewhat sketchy, a 100+ years of use in the US is more than enough.

I'm shocked that the red cross symbol is copyrighted. Don't tons of games use that symbol on healthpacks? I'm thinking specifically of military-themed games that have realistic looking medical equipment.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2137 on: September 18, 2020, 04:26:38 am »

I think the caduceus has been used as a symbol of medicine long enough to be recognizable. The Wikipedia page that DeKaFu linked describes incidents going back thousands of years. While these are somewhat sketchy, a 100+ years of use in the US is more than enough.

If you're from that part of the world (US) where this mistaken use has cemented itself, sure it's recognizable (and the 2 symbols are somewhat similar so it's not surprising others have made the same mistake in the past as well). Regardless it's kind of silly to not use the original symbol when there is one since having an as far as possible ubiquitous symbol so as to make the UI more intuitive is the whole point.
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Starver

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2138 on: September 18, 2020, 06:19:40 am »

I'm shocked that the red cross symbol is copyrighted. Don't tons of games use that symbol on healthpacks? I'm thinking specifically of military-themed games that have realistic looking medical equipment.
It is an officially protected symbol (along with the Red Crescent and, controversially[1], the Red Diamond), I'm not sure "Copyright" covers it, more than as a key piece of the Geneva Convention. It's been much degraded by 'casual' use[2][3] like game-graphics at least since the days of Doom and doubtless in various 8-bit applications in the decade or so beforehand (Civ used one or other of the rods, in its context of ddnoting medicine I can't remember off hand if that 'chose wrongly').

Filmmakers (and even "living history re-enactors") absolutely need permission to use Red-Crossed markings in their productions, so films like (or about) Dunkirk will get such permission, strictly vetted in the use to try to never defame the reputation of the organisation. This would make it tricky to depict "doctors gone wrong" or even "false-flag disguised as medics", even if it was depicting an actual such occurance for verimisilitude. There's probably ways to get around that (with agreement).

Video games have this issue, especially if "medic" class FPS characters are entirely supposed to be partisan and have at least a small-arm to go with their branded medikit, the use of each depending upon which team(s) are spotted out in the open with a reduced HP bar above their head. Maybe I would concede that in single-played runs through a Doomy dungeon, it's not any more inconceivable that someone from the in-game ICRCRC has ensured that official FAKs have been scattered as liberally upon pedestals, behind secret doors, etc (in whatever hell-dimension the player is currently fighting through) as that someone else has been similarly dropping ammo clips, body armour, etc.

For DF, you could probably get away with "green cross" symbol (IANALawyer!) if the snake-rod-of-whatever-form ever becomes too awkward to pixellate (say as shoulder-emblem for a character sprite where job-assigments/specialities are an overlaid infographic), but certainly the dorfs wouldn't really have any known cause to use the same symbology, it'd be for the benefit of the player (except where it isn't).


[1] Under the back-formed 'reason' that the cross is the colour-reversed Swiss flag (that coincidentally/by derivation only looks like a Christian cross) and the crescent is from the colour reversed Ottoman flag (without the star, and again only coincidentally/by derivation is the islamic symbol) and thus neither is meant to be religiously-symbolic (but it doesn't harm if crescents and crosses are used in crescent/cross-tending cultures), the "Red Star Of David" suggestion was not well received. Apart from anything else, would the Hindu 'Red Cross' organisations ask for the Red Aum or even, if you can imagine it, the Red Swastik? Eventually they allowed the Red Diamond (red border, white fill) and that tends to be used in cross/crescent-'phobic' situations.

[2] Though it isn't used at all in the UK health service, not on its ambulances, etc... First Aid packs may have it, but 'a cross' in white or embossed upon green seem to be de rigour, pharmacies employ a particular form of 'green cross', St. John's Ambulance have their own 'cross' symbol, and only actual British Red Cross resources (like their emergency vehicles) use, obviously legitimately, the exact symbology.
[3] Because of objections by the international/local Red Cross, unaffiliated mountain-medics in US ski resorts had to stop using red-crossed penants to indicate their nature, so they reversed the Red Cross symbology... To then be theoretically using the Swiss Flag, again, double-inverted!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 12:34:45 pm by Starver »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2139 on: September 18, 2020, 12:00:21 pm »

Maybe a bit late, but perhaps to indicate quality we could add a 4-pointed star of varying size (increasing with quality) in the corner? Like this one:



It wouldn't be directly on the item and it's a simple shape, so less visual noise and easier to understand in small image resolutions.

It could have a second star inside it or stars around it for masterwork or artifact items to further distinguish them from lower quality levels.

Other than that I am all for high diversity of items.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 12:06:25 pm by bloop_bleep »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2140 on: September 18, 2020, 06:33:25 pm »

Maybe a bit late, but perhaps to indicate quality we could add a 4-pointed star of varying size (increasing with quality) in the corner? Like this one:



It wouldn't be directly on the item and it's a simple shape, so less visual noise and easier to understand in small image resolutions.

It could have a second star inside it or stars around it for masterwork or artifact items to further distinguish them from lower quality levels.

Other than that I am all for high diversity of items.
Equipment is going to be shown on critters visually. A floating star for every item of clothing on every dwarf running around the fortress would be a mess.
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Cruxador

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2141 on: September 18, 2020, 10:45:56 pm »

Baloney: Nope, Tarn isn't that far into the coding. It's been communicated though, he knows about it.

To everyone: The feedback on the weapon quality was great. So let's do that again. :) With instruments and instrument parts.

I prepared a dozen instruments in six materials each, as well as all the components. Those don't perfectly assemble, since some of those are internal parts, or belong to different types that wouldn't mix well. The wiki says that no materials are permitted for rings and neck bowls, hence there are none. ^^

Those are pretty good! The skulls on the bone ones are pretty cute, but after that first impression, I think it's probably better not to be quite that silly in the official tileset.

Also not sure about the drums; the constructed ones look a bit too rock and roll for time period. I guess you were probably going for taiko or otherwise an east Asian type? But I feel like most people will just see modern floor toms. The drum components on their own kind of look like wastepaper baskets, but I'm not sure how solvable that is; the real item kind of does too.

Seems a bit odd that the only horn not shaped like a bull's horn is the one made of bone.

(And a bit worried you don't have an inside track on the code, or at least the intentions, and need to reference the wiki!  :P )
Even Toady doesn't necessarily know everything without having to check.

It's a UI element though, your dwarves will never see it. The player does. ;)
Yeah, it would be nice if there was a symbol for health and healing that was widely recognized and didn't have inherent religious or cultural implications but, well, there isn't one (green cross traces its origins to the Christian cross), and trying to make one up would be likely to mislead.

Maybe a bit late, but perhaps to indicate quality we could add a 4-pointed star of varying size (increasing with quality) in the corner? Like this one:



It wouldn't be directly on the item and it's a simple shape, so less visual noise and easier to understand in small image resolutions.

It could have a second star inside it or stars around it for masterwork or artifact items to further distinguish them from lower quality levels.

Other than that I am all for high diversity of items.
One key strength of moving away from ASCII is that instead of icons which must be learned, representative imagery can be used. Obviously there are still limitations, because of the scale and level of detail, the sheer number of graphics that would be needed for every possible permutation to represent the full detail, and because for the sake of gameplay, some things must be represented which don't physically exist. The first two cases are easily addressed by omitting nuance*, and visually, item quality is very much a matter of nuance. Therefore, there's no reason to show item quality in any way that doesn't reflect what's actually going on** based on these criteria, and only the third is relevant. Since item quality does physically exist, and can be construed visually as Meph proved, there's no need to invent something for this purpose.
Also, while adding icons may not clutter the item itself, it still clutters the game, since in addition to having the item graphic, there's now also essentially a "status" icon for every item, and that adds up fast.

On the other hand, if you're thinking only about menus, then that's not a bad idea. It's basically the same idea as the icons by the names currently, but repositioned for a more visual experience. Personally rather than size of the star, I would rather borrow from the widely recognized visual language of mobile games (and Amazon reviews, and other things) by giving the items somewhere from 0-5 stars representing quality up to masterwork, and give artifacts something a bit more special that's clearly outside the star count system. The stars can also be colored, which is similarly conventional in showing item quality in games, although Dwarf Fortress already uses colors in a lot of ways.




*Though deciding in which cases to omit that nuance is not necessarily so easy, but that's a separate issue.
**Which I mean in a general sense; obviously omitting nuance within the inclusion is still viable, and is what's reflected on the current versions. But a solution which bares no resemblance to any possible visual representation of quality isn't recommended by these considerations.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2142 on: September 19, 2020, 03:02:08 am »

While a star count (or bar count, using a little less space) might be useful for isolated item display (in lists or when viewing details), it still uses up space. If sharing the space with the item tile it would cut away a piece of the item where it's overlaying it, and if placed outside it uses up additional space.
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Cruxador

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2143 on: September 19, 2020, 08:05:24 pm »

While a star count (or bar count, using a little less space) might be useful for isolated item display (in lists or when viewing details), it still uses up space. If sharing the space with the item tile it would cut away a piece of the item where it's overlaying it, and if placed outside it uses up additional space.
A four pointed star can be recognizable a 3x3 square, and five of them can fit in 5x11 space, which barely exceeds the 6x9 of the font currently being used. Position them the long way and it fits within less space than two letters. That's not much worse than the icons used in the vanilla game.
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Bumber

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2144 on: September 19, 2020, 08:11:00 pm »

Do weapons show up when equipped? Having the stars floating near the unit might be confusing.
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