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Author Topic: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Ironhand - Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 459843 times)

voliol

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2010 on: August 20, 2020, 11:12:12 am »

It is what it is ror6ax, no need to be overly anxious about it. Doing so mostly just adds stress to everyone involved. Kitfox are also not responsible for the UX redesign, afaik, their work is in publishing, which means advertising and legal stuff, as well as acting as an intermediary to Steam, and Meph, Mayday and Dabu (the composer). Meph and Mayday are clearly working directly with Toady though, so I'm unsure how exactly that works. They could of course explain/confirm/deny this themselves in further detail, if they wish to, I really do not know much more than this.

Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2011 on: August 20, 2020, 11:37:07 am »

Quote
The "help save the noobs" thread has a lot of love put into it as well and not a single acknowledgement that it's being read by anyone. I thought it is precisely the job Kitfox was supposed to be doing. With Thursday releases becoming smaller each week, I feel uneasy about the future of UX endeavour.
As far as I'm aware Tarn does read pretty much anything here. Just two days ago he commented on the positive feedback the little UI preview has gotten.

I personally read everything here and on Reddit. Mike reads most of it too.

Cruxador: It's not because I shy away from feedback. Anyone who has followed me, MasterworkDF, my tileset, or the work here can attest to that. It's because you are usually explicitly contrarian to whatever was posted, extremely sure that your own opinion is the only valid one, assuming a lot of things that are incorrect. It's tiring. I'm sure you don't mean it that way or even notice anymore...

Quote
What's "restricts"? No matter what you pick, you need a color scheme for the UI where the components work well together. No matter what you pick, every color added narrows the range of what other colors can be used and look good. If you can make a stone/metal that looks good, by all means do so, but so far the color choices aren't nearly as versatile in terms of the range of screens that they look good on as it would be to stick with tried and true options. You haven't even really got control over whether the elements will be predominantly warm or cool tones.
That's your response. On my note that I personally favour rock/metal.

You assumed that I designed the UI.
You assumed I said anything against parchment.
You assumed I currently "haven't even really got control over whether the elements will be predominantly warm or cool tones." - What?
You start with a rhetorical question, then telling me " by all means do" what I like, followed by the obvious "but" here is what you should actually do.

It's nice that you want to help this project, but between getting both Mike and me avoiding this thread, you have done more harm than good.
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Cruxador

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2012 on: August 20, 2020, 12:33:53 pm »

It's because you are usually explicitly contrarian to whatever was posted, extremely sure that your own opinion is the only valid one, assuming a lot of things that are incorrect. It's tiring.
Well, for those areas where I think everything is already perfect, or as good as I have the capacity to recommend on, I don't tend to see any need to say something. If something is done right to that degree, it is presumably done so with intention; that is to say, the person who does it is aware of what was done well because they went out of their way to achieve that. Similarly, why would I say something if I didn't have a reasonable confidence that my opinion was justified in fact? If it's based on a lack of foundational information, then it would be helpful to clarify; if I don't know, I'm probably not the only one. Of course, if you're too tired to be bothered, that's understandable as well, especially the way things are these days. Certainly with all the fires I've been a bit stressed myself; it happens.

Quote
Quote
What's "restricts"? No matter what you pick, you need a color scheme for the UI where the components work well together. No matter what you pick, every color added narrows the range of what other colors can be used and look good. If you can make a stone/metal that looks good, by all means do so, but so far the color choices aren't nearly as versatile in terms of the range of screens that they look good on as it would be to stick with tried and true options. You haven't even really got control over whether the elements will be predominantly warm or cool tones.
That's your response. On my note that I personally favour rock/metal.

You assumed that I designed the UI.
You assumed I said anything against parchment.
You assumed I currently "haven't even really got control over whether the elements will be predominantly warm or cool tones." - What?
You start with a rhetorical question, then telling me " by all means do" what I like, followed by the obvious "but" here is what you should actually do.
I was using the general "You", speaking to the design principle. I'll try and avoid using second person in such abstract circumstances, if that's particularly bothersome to you. It's the kind of thing I can easily forget though, since we talk only relatively sporadically over months and years, so if it happens again, please bear with me. I can try to avoid rhetorical questions as well, if that's something you perceive as inherently rude, but I use them a lot and will definitely forget to check back and rephrase things at some point. I already caught two in this very post where I'm more likely to be aware of it than any.

Phrasing aside:
I didn't assume you designed the UI, but I did assume you had some degree of say in it, based on the imperfect understanding of the design process. I interpreted your statement about parchment as being against it, which I don't think is an unreasonable interpretation based on the uncaveated way that you phrased it, but if you merely meant to highlight a potential weakness, then I apologize for my misunderstanding. I'm sure I've been similarly unclear myself. With regards to the lack of control over warm or cool, I was referring again to the variety in how these colors can appear on different monitors; although the colors are very slightly warm, they are close enough to a purely even tone that given the tendency many screens have to emphasize blue light, they can wind up on the cool side of things. In other words, the colors chosen do not exert a very strong control over what the end user will perceive, because their position within the spectrum is near to a point that makes a substantial qualitative difference. That point falls within the range of variation in how the colors defined in the software are transmitted through the hardware to the wetware.

On the last point, I can see how my phrasing seemed petty and domineering, for which I apologize. What I meant is that I recognize that the stone/metal palette could look good, and I would by no means be opposed to it on principle, but it is more susceptible to a particular limitation which has not been overcome in the current (and, I know, definitely not final) implementation. I was also highlighting that there are alternatives which dodge the issue more effectively.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2013 on: August 20, 2020, 05:16:02 pm »

So....if it's nothing to do with Meph & Mayday, can we start a new official thread on UI feedback somewhere please? This was a lot more fun to read when we were talking to artists about their choices when positioning shadows in ramp design.

(Seems like a good thing to have UI feedback somewhere else anyway. Discussions are already building up in a couple of different threads. And a link to a new thread would be easy to give to people on Reddit, etc who want to give feedback).
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 05:26:35 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Starver

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2014 on: August 20, 2020, 05:43:12 pm »

When I decided to talk about the (announced) interface from usability... I think it was..., I thought the Save The Noobs thread was better than here (but not perfect).

I'm very bad at it, but I'm trying to stick to graphics comments only here. (It does sometimes merge with layout style, a bit, where layout itself shouldn't be here. Ditto what, through maybe a graphical element, should be an added piece of functionality.)

Stage 1: A meta-thread to discuss the exact scopes of various existing/potential threads (like this post should be).
Stage 2: ???
Stage 3: Barely breaking even!!!
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Toady One

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2015 on: August 21, 2020, 04:00:26 am »

It is what it is ror6ax, no need to be overly anxious about it. Doing so mostly just adds stress to everyone involved. Kitfox are also not responsible for the UX redesign, afaik, their work is in publishing, which means advertising and legal stuff, as well as acting as an intermediary to Steam, and Meph, Mayday and Dabu (the composer). Meph and Mayday are clearly working directly with Toady though, so I'm unsure how exactly that works. They could of course explain/confirm/deny this themselves in further detail, if they wish to, I really do not know much more than this.

We handle all of the Steam News posts/images.  Every two weeks, I pick some stuff out, often in coordination with Mike and Meph depending on what's going on, and I take some shots and write some text.  I send that over to Victoria every other Wednesday night and she formats it and often adds a Kitfox Note.  There are times where we've coordinated a little bit with Kitfox about an upcoming news post -- for instance on the embark UI, which was an important reveal.  "Reveals" etc. are a little different from how we've operated in the past of course, but it's convenient for a number of reasons not to show things too early -- PC Gamer etc. pick up some of our images and it's not bad to put a good foot forward in those circumstances.  I'm working on the main screen UI now, so it won't take forever for that restriction to be lifted.

Kitfox has nothing to do with the noobs thread.  We've taken extensive notes on both the stress and noobs thread, which I've referred to on occasion in FotF, but we haven't taken action on them yet, so likely they seem abandoned if you haven't been following every Q&A, which is certainly a mistake of ours.

(edit)

But yeah, I've been reading the thread, and historically haven't posted much/at all since I'm not an artist and it has been useful for the artists and I didn't want to detract from that.

I've just been taking art/interface questions over in Future of the Fortress when it comes up.  There's not much else but UI etc. going on now, so I'm not sure FotF is terrible for that discussion, even if it also has magic/etc. talk as well.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 04:10:04 am by Toady One »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2016 on: August 21, 2020, 08:06:11 am »

PatrikLundell has opened what will hopefully be seen at some point as the official UI discussion thread right here:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177122.msg8181151#msg8181151N

Let's get back to beakdog colours and beautiful procedural trees.  :)
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clinodev

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2017 on: August 22, 2020, 07:13:51 am »

PatrikLundell has opened what will hopefully be seen at some point as the official UI discussion thread right here:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177122.msg8181151#msg8181151N

Let's get back to beakdog colours and beautiful procedural trees.  :)

Toady just saw you referencing that thread you've been pushing, and instead suggested the FotF replies.
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Bumber

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2018 on: August 22, 2020, 11:38:07 am »

Toady just saw you referencing that thread you've been pushing, and instead suggested the FotF replies.

???

Toady's most recent post is before that thread existed.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 11:42:50 am by Bumber »
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Superdorf

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2019 on: August 22, 2020, 11:56:51 am »

So, question: is all this UI-work going to carry over into DF Classic?
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Starver

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2020 on: August 22, 2020, 02:46:27 pm »

(Probably should catch up with the FotF thread, and start posting there, then, but...)

My guesses: Layout, probably; Anything new presented as info and capable of being twiddled, likely; Colour themes (flat hues, borders, etc), I would imagine.

The extra graphical flourishes (the twiddly metalwork bordering)... Maybe some of it, though technically if it's artwork done by the Steam Artwork duo, it's supposed to be a big part of the reward from the Premium purchase.  So probably rationed. (Or have Premium and Lo-Fi variants?)
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clinodev

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2021 on: August 22, 2020, 04:19:09 pm »

Toady just saw you referencing that thread you've been pushing, and instead suggested the FotF replies.

???

Toady's most recent post is before that thread existed.

It's a moot point as that thread's been locked.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2022 on: August 22, 2020, 05:42:07 pm »

Oh well. Never mind then. So much for making things easy to find.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 05:46:14 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Yakefa

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2023 on: August 26, 2020, 08:00:54 pm »

@Vordak: Lol!

So based on the consensus of feedback it seems like the prominent concerns are the office software vibe and the lack of tool tips.

How about something like this? (Right side)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Remove the borders and add parchment or something like stone as a background for the different sections.

That's a really good mockup, nice job! It takes the good base of the new UI a step further.
Tooltips would be amazing for a lot of players who are getting started. If we could avoid having to alt/tab constantly in order to visit the wiki, because nothing is really explained in the game, it would make a huge difference. Improve the flow, dpesn't force you out of the game to obtain essential knowledge that should be available inside the game.

I also like that the player's inventory is more distinguishable from the available items. In the steam page screenshots, you can't really tell the difference without the tiny text at the top.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 08:03:45 pm by Yakefa »
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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2024 on: August 26, 2020, 08:53:46 pm »

Right now, latest test on my end, looks like this:

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