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[Blind Wolf]

Blind Wolf, while I don't know everything, the way I read the announcement is this: the game code will be the same, with just a steam exclusive tileset and mod workshop support. They are going to upgrade the base code, and the community will be able to creste their own fancy graphics.

I hope we also get sounds, yis. :3

I know what it says, I'm talking about what the inevitable result will be down the road. This is not the first game to opt to do this, and it all ends the same.

A lot of problems have intolerable/unfair solutions, so called, but that does not make them above criticism, or a good thing, because they exist. You may think it's fair, but that's not how DF has been done for its entire life up until now. After this, it's just going to be a product, beholden to the will of customers and Kitfox, not a passion project. All of us who have played it before now, for well over a decade, will effectively be spit on when inevitably the free version ceases to be updated.

Even if it did turn into a product, there's nothing wrong with that.  We are not entitled to the labor of others for free, no matter how much we've grown accustomed to it.  That's an unreasonable expectation.

The only reason there would be any problem would be if the "free" players donated money and had an expectation of indefinite future development on their terms in exchange for their "donation".  It would be unfortunate if donors expected that, but that's also an unreasonable expectation.

There absolutely is. A product is handled differently than, and has different expectation and responsibilities to it than, a passion project. As far as 'we're not entitled,' you may think everything should be monetized, and monetization is a good thing, but not everyone has such a hyper-captalist view of the world. If, as far as you are concerned, everyone should suffer for the sake of money, then I think it's only a matter of time before you gt bitten when the pursuit of money damages something you do care about.

[Starver]

Just to note that I'm happy for more people/footfall/revenue to help the Adamses along, with the Steam/etc, and I definitely don't begrudge them (and the associated contributors) that.

But as a Steam refusenik myself, I guess I'm left hoping that I don't lose out too much. It sounds like the intention is that I won't (where it matters to me) for the foreseeable future, but there's no accounting for the unforeseeable bit beyond that. So ifngres rcsoedd!

[Retropunch]

I can't see DF selling a fraction of that unless the interface is comparable. Rimworld is LITERALLY like a combination of DF, DFHack and DTherapist in a single unified interface. I dream of DF being as user friendly.

I couldn't agree more - it's all down to the user interface.

In my opinion, it's the only reason why DF has been relegated to the 'hardcore' gaming sphere, rather than going mainstream. More than that, I feel it'd just take a little (relatively speaking) polish - a bit more unification, mouse support (already in DFHack) and a few tooltips/etc.

I feel it would need DTherapist built in - I find it a bit too obtuse without it. Perhaps it could be a DT 'light' which stops it being quite so spoilery, but it definitely needs a similar interface.

But as a Steam refusenik myself, I guess I'm left hoping that I don't lose out too much. It sounds like the intention is that I won't (where it matters to me) for the foreseeable future, but there's no accounting for the unforeseeable bit beyond that. So ifngres rcsoedd!

It'll be on itch too - I'm sure they might think about stuff like GoG and the like too.

[pikachu17]

I don't believe Toady himself would do something like that, but even if he did, it's not the end of the world.
It is- as the game says- "Sad, but not unexpected."
Just so long as he gives patreon supporters (and other people who gave him money) free copies if he stops making the free version, I don't really see anything wrong with this.

[David Holmes]

...but not everyone has such a hyper-captalist view of the world. If, as far as you are concerned, everyone should suffer for the sake of money, then I think it's only a matter of time before you gt bitten when the pursuit of money damages something you do care about.

Being deprived of a free computer game is not "suffering".  Not being able to afford healthcare is.  Which is the developers' stated reason for doing this.

[Shonai_Dweller]

This is nothing but a prelude to the death of Dwarf Fortress. Every developer who has pulled this has sold out, and before long the free version is missing major features and updates, sometimes delayed by months, sometimes not present at all, and eventually? It stops being updated all together. All of those excited in the moment will, in but a few years, know exactly what I'm talking about when it inevitably comes.

So just buy the paid version then, what's the problem?

Why should I have to with a game that was previously free? That's why it's called selling out.

I can understand that, but buying simply solves your problem. If you're worried about getting updates and getting them first, I think it's easier (and fair) to pay once and receive updates for years. And with DF there's no worry about developers taking money and stopping development after some time as it happens often.

A lot of problems have intolerable/unfair solutions, so called, but that does not make them above criticism, or a good thing, because they exist. You may think it's fair, but that's not how DF has been done for its entire life up until now. After this, it's just going to be a product, beholden to the will of customers and Kitfox, not a passion project. All of us who have played it before now, for well over a decade, will effectively be spit on when inevitably the free version ceases to be updated.

This is nothing but a prelude to the death of Dwarf Fortress. Every developer who has pulled this has sold out, and before long the free version is missing major features and updates, sometimes delayed by months, sometimes not present at all, and eventually? It stops being updated all together. All of those excited in the moment will, in but a few years, know exactly what I'm talking about when it inevitably comes.

Unreal World. Which is exactly none of what you say.

It's been many years since I touched Unreal World, but it works as a demo with many features locked behind paying money. That I remember. How exactly is that a positive?

Which features are those?
Steam Achievements? Automatic Steam updates?
And...

Both versions, exact same game, available one on Steam, one a few weeks later on the homepage.

List the features you're talking about please.

[scourge728]

I do admit I'm quite worried about kitfox as well, mostly because I know nothing about them, but I'm hoping it's like what it appears minecraft is to microsoft, just kind of left alone to do the things that make it so popular, I don't know if that's true about minecraft, but that's what it appears to be to me at least

[MockBarkley]

This is nothing but a prelude to the death of Dwarf Fortress. Every developer who has pulled this has sold out, and before long the free version is missing major features and updates, sometimes delayed by months, sometimes not present at all, and eventually? It stops being updated all together. All of those excited in the moment will, in but a few years, know exactly what I'm talking about when it inevitably comes.

Nah. There are tons of games that use this model - especially roguelikes. ADAM, TOME, Unreal World, etc. DF has been around forever with all sorts of different ways to give them money. This is just yet another way.

Kitfox is a small company that works with small developers. There's no selling out there.

[Starver]

I do admit I'm quite worried about kitfox as well, mostly because I know nothing about them, but I'm hoping it's like what it appears minecraft is to microsoft, just kind of left alone to do the things that make it so popular, I don't know if that's true about minecraft, but that's what it appears to be to me at least

I haven't played a fresh version of Minecraft since it became a Microsoft thing. Not a dig against MS or a boycott, just coincided with circumstances that left me unable to continue to waste my time on it, and never tried to get back in*.

From what little I've seen in a very brief check, there's better vibes with the Kitfox crew, though. All the best to them and their forks of the project, and I hope they do keep the faith. And welcome to our imminent influx of forum n00bs, or will that be handled by Steam/Itch/Reddit/etc places that I'm unlikely to interact with?


* - Apparently you can get fire/drown-proofing potions and the like, these days, which rather spoils my self-satisfaction at accomplishing subsea and/or subterrainean one-man megaconstructions/excavations equipped mostly with just buckets and pickaxes. And the art of not falling off your own ziggurats/mountainous-sand-piles and excluding hostile mobs is apparently not what it was any more. It'd be like trying to now get into Fortnite, I suppose, or even WoW.

[Meph]

Does anyone know what the "V - Visualize" key does in the steam screenshot of the new ui?

Yes. Nothing. Shouldn't be there, move along please.

Kitfox has 8 members, and Tanya has written 2 books together with Tarn. They are friends, this is not EA buying Bay12 or so.

In the long run I'd assume that the free Df version will look better than the steam DF, simply because of the large community of people producing mods, tilesets and utilities. Not sure what that does to the Steam sales though.

Overall I approve of this quite heartily, not only because of Tarns financial situation, but because I want to game to be as good as it can be, and for more people to play it.

[scourge728]

Kitfox has 8 members,

This. This right here brings me more joy than it should, and by that I mean an incredible amount

[Retropunch]

It's been repeatedly stated that it'll continue free on the site - I doubt they'll go back on their word, but even if they do it is absolutely 100% the Addams' prerogative what they do with it - they could launch the source code into the sun if they wanted or charge each person 100k for each tile.

No one has any 'right' to anything, and I think you do Toady a great disservice if you think that he's 'selling out' after SEVENTEEN YEARS of providing something completely freely. Which he's still doing now, just giving you an optional extra.

[Knight Otu]

Kitfox has 8 members, and Tanya has written 2 books together with Tarn. They are friends, this is not EA buying Bay12 or so.

This, very much. Tarn and Zach didn't roll dice to choose who gets to publish DF on Steam. They chose someone they know and trust.

I'm pretty sure Steam won't be my thing personally for quite a while, if ever, but I do believe that overall, this will be to their benefit.

[Starver]

If that's (@Retro) at all to me (because I know what I mean to say, but fear what it might have looked like - can't speak for anybody else who may or may hot have edged in that direction during this discussion) then I am absolutely in agreement in the Toadyverse's autonomy (or, Brexit buzzword, "sovereignty"!) over this, and I'm not owed anything.

Still, I have hopes and worries. (Definitely more on the Hope side than with the EU thing, which is an off-topic mess, or if had it been an EA thing!)

[Meph]

I have Steam just for 1-2 games, it's my cup of tea either. Guess I'll have to figure out what my password was once again. (GOG is great)

The "team" so to speak is 11 people. 8 Kitfox, 2 freelance artists (lol, I'm an artist now), 1 freelance sound person. Devs are still only Tarn and Zach, no one else.