Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

Author Topic: Round Earth  (Read 6734 times)

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2018, 02:30:11 pm »

*furiously corrects the bug in the Putnam code object that makes it 'think' that not everything needs to be perfectly simulated*
Logged

Rufflikerex

  • Bay Watcher
  • One time, a horde of Monkeys doomed my Dwarves.
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2018, 02:37:24 pm »

you do know that you don't need to perfectly accurately simulate everything, yes?

I agree.
Logged
May ye remember Ladderbound's fate when one of yer fruit-pickers dwarfs be thirsty and not moving.
May ye seek out solutions before your dwarf drops dead.
Ladderbound provided the proof ye can be stuck at the top of a ladder.
All raise yer cups to Ladderbound!

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

  • Bay Watcher
  • what even is truth
    • View Profile
    • test
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2018, 04:20:42 pm »

It's only active at the edge. There might be edge lag, but not much else.
To be at a representative scale it would have to be generating millions and millions of Z-levels and close to infinite tiles on the X and Y axis.
*bunch of pointless numbers not related to the comment*
My argument was about the simulation of the multitude of flat-world mythology.
According to most of them there is an infinite space of nothing beyond the border/edge of the world .. not to mention how mention how many millions of Z-levels of animal needs to be simulated carrying the world on its back some of those mythologies have, or infinite empty space others explain is below the flat world.
"According to the flat-earth mythology, space is really big." This is true for most cosmologies. It's not particularly relevant to the flat-earth cosmology.

We don't need to simulate the entire cosmology at once at a 1-meter level of detail to include it in the game. There is a precedent for this, as we already have the sun and the moon in the game at an abstract level. More general precedents include the loading of map tiles, which allows us to simulate only the relevant world at a high level of detail while the rest is stored and runs more abstractly in the background.
Logged
Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

Miles_Umbrae

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2018, 05:11:23 pm »

It's only active at the edge. There might be edge lag, but not much else.
To be at a representative scale it would have to be generating millions and millions of Z-levels and close to infinite tiles on the X and Y axis.
*bunch of pointless numbers not related to the comment*
My argument was about the simulation of the multitude of flat-world mythology.
According to most of them there is an infinite space of nothing beyond the border/edge of the world .. not to mention how mention how many millions of Z-levels of animal needs to be simulated carrying the world on its back some of those mythologies have, or infinite empty space others explain is below the flat world.
"According to the flat-earth mythology, space is really big." This is true for most cosmologies. It's not particularly relevant to the flat-earth cosmology.

We don't need to simulate the entire cosmology at once at a 1-meter level of detail to include it in the game. There is a precedent for this, as we already have the sun and the moon in the game at an abstract level. More general precedents include the loading of map tiles, which allows us to simulate only the relevant world at a high level of detail while the rest is stored and runs more abstractly in the background.
Even when "run abstractly in the background" it still requires simulation, calculations and computations.
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2018, 05:27:22 pm »

It's only active at the edge. There might be edge lag, but not much else.
To be at a representative scale it would have to be generating millions and millions of Z-levels and close to infinite tiles on the X and Y axis.
*bunch of pointless numbers not related to the comment*
My argument was about the simulation of the multitude of flat-world mythology.
According to most of them there is an infinite space of nothing beyond the border/edge of the world .. not to mention how mention how many millions of Z-levels of animal needs to be simulated carrying the world on its back some of those mythologies have, or infinite empty space others explain is below the flat world.
"According to the flat-earth mythology, space is really big." This is true for most cosmologies. It's not particularly relevant to the flat-earth cosmology.

We don't need to simulate the entire cosmology at once at a 1-meter level of detail to include it in the game. There is a precedent for this, as we already have the sun and the moon in the game at an abstract level. More general precedents include the loading of map tiles, which allows us to simulate only the relevant world at a high level of detail while the rest is stored and runs more abstractly in the background.
Even when "run abstractly in the background" it still requires simulation, calculations and computations.
But really, not that many. How often does the game update the position of the sun? Once an hour maybe, does it even bother in fortress mode? We don't seem to have day/night at all there.
Toady's mentioned simulating starfields for very little extra cost. Pretty sure a bottomless pit/entrance to another dimension at the edge of the world wouldn't need a supercomputer to handle.

Now, he also mentioned how fun it would be if the turtle that a world may be balanced on could interact with the world. That sounds quite a bit more intensive...
Logged

Putnam

  • Bay Watcher
  • DAT WIZARD
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2018, 05:30:27 pm »

Even when "run abstractly in the background" it still requires simulation, calculations and computations.

"Abstractly" here literally means "without the simulation, calculations and computations". That's its common usage in this context.

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2018, 08:49:00 pm »

*furiously corrects the bug in the Putnam code object that makes it 'think' that not everything needs to be perfectly simulated*
We will never be able to simulate everything.
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Mostly phone-posting, sorry for any typos or autocorrect hijinks.

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2018, 09:55:55 pm »

*furiously corrects the bug in the Putnam code object that makes it 'think' that not everything needs to be perfectly simulated*
We will never be able to simulate everything.
In Dwarf Fortress or in life? I reckon 200 years from now, there'll be enough data from the world 100 years previous to simulate it fairly well (at least as far as anyone who wasn't there at the time will be able to tell).
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2018, 10:17:51 pm »

*furiously corrects the bug in the Putnam code object that makes it 'think' that not everything needs to be perfectly simulated*
We will never be able to simulate everything.
In Dwarf Fortress or in life? I reckon 200 years from now, there'll be enough data from the world 100 years previous to simulate it fairly well (at least as far as anyone who wasn't there at the time will be able to tell).
In Dwarf Fortress. Physical laws do not allow you to simulate something perfectly while having a computer smaller than the thing you're perfectly simulating. So we will never be able to truly simulate a world without a planet-sized computer. It's just not possible. So DF as a complete virtual world is a pointless pipedream. Even if we didn't simulate it atom-to-atom, you would still need a HUGE computer.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 10:22:20 pm by KittyTac »
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Mostly phone-posting, sorry for any typos or autocorrect hijinks.

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

  • Bay Watcher
  • what even is truth
    • View Profile
    • test
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2018, 10:29:03 pm »

*furiously corrects the bug in the Putnam code object that makes it 'think' that not everything needs to be perfectly simulated*
We will never be able to simulate everything.
In Dwarf Fortress or in life? I reckon 200 years from now, there'll be enough data from the world 100 years previous to simulate it fairly well (at least as far as anyone who wasn't there at the time will be able to tell).
In Dwarf Fortress. Physical laws do not allow you to simulate something perfectly while having a computer smaller than the thing you're perfectly simulating. So we will never be able to truly simulate a world without a planet-sized computer. It's just not possible. So DF as a complete virtual world is a pointless pipedream. Even if we didn't simulate it atom-to-atom, you would still need a HUGE computer.
That's only true if you care about subatomic positions, though. If you aggregate simulated worlds by appearing identical for all intents and purposes, and you don't care about determinism, then you can ignore subatomic physics and save on calculations.

What you say is true for a physics simulator or a prediction machine, but it's not relevant for a story generator.
Logged
Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2018, 10:35:07 pm »

*furiously corrects the bug in the Putnam code object that makes it 'think' that not everything needs to be perfectly simulated*
We will never be able to simulate everything.
In Dwarf Fortress or in life? I reckon 200 years from now, there'll be enough data from the world 100 years previous to simulate it fairly well (at least as far as anyone who wasn't there at the time will be able to tell).
In Dwarf Fortress. Physical laws do not allow you to simulate something perfectly while having a computer smaller than the thing you're perfectly simulating. So we will never be able to truly simulate a world without a planet-sized computer. It's just not possible. So DF as a complete virtual world is a pointless pipedream. Even if we didn't simulate it atom-to-atom, you would still need a HUGE computer.
That's only true if you care about subatomic positions, though. If you aggregate simulated worlds by appearing identical for all intents and purposes, and you don't care about determinism, then you can ignore subatomic physics and save on calculations.

What you say is true for a physics simulator or a prediction machine, but it's not relevant for a story generator.
Still, a big-ass computer would be needed for near-complete simulation of real life. And it would require more memory than what is practical even with maximum storage density. So down with simulating everything.
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Mostly phone-posting, sorry for any typos or autocorrect hijinks.

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2018, 10:45:46 pm »

*furiously corrects the bug in the Putnam code object that makes it 'think' that not everything needs to be perfectly simulated*
We will never be able to simulate everything.
In Dwarf Fortress or in life? I reckon 200 years from now, there'll be enough data from the world 100 years previous to simulate it fairly well (at least as far as anyone who wasn't there at the time will be able to tell).
In Dwarf Fortress. Physical laws do not allow you to simulate something perfectly while having a computer smaller than the thing you're perfectly simulating. So we will never be able to truly simulate a world without a planet-sized computer. It's just not possible. So DF as a complete virtual world is a pointless pipedream. Even if we didn't simulate it atom-to-atom, you would still need a HUGE computer.
Since Toady has never intended on simulating everything in Dwarf Fortress, then sure, we'll never get there (nor should we get close). It's a generator of fantasy worlds good enough to get some common fantasy tropes happening for the player to experience procedurally. Don't need atoms for that...
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2018, 10:57:08 pm »

And I agree with that.
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Mostly phone-posting, sorry for any typos or autocorrect hijinks.

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2018, 02:01:46 am »

*furiously corrects the bug in the Putnam code object that makes it 'think' that not everything needs to be perfectly simulated*
We will never be able to simulate everything.
Ahhh, that explains it...  Seems to be a setting imported by various code units. Now just to discover where, and I should be able to return this system to normal functionality. May need a restart.

https://www.xkcd.com/1620/ https://www.xkcd.com/1763/
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 02:03:41 am by Starver »
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Round Earth
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2018, 02:14:42 am »

In all seriousness, simulating a planet atom-to-atom might be possible if we get Dyson spheres. But I highly doubt that someone would dedicate theirs to Dwarf Fortress.
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Mostly phone-posting, sorry for any typos or autocorrect hijinks.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5