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[Leatra]

Dwarf Fortress, a game I can't stop myself from playing for a month or so every couple of years.

I love Dwarf Fortress for its capability to generate history. Defending against a siege in fortress mode and killing a bronze colossus with coins in adventure mod is fun and all, but what I love most is occasionally going into the legends mode to see what's happening. Because of this, I regularly retire and unretire adventurers and fortresses so the actors that I have controlled can "regain their senses" and do their stuff so later I can observe their lives. I made my last adventurer a lord, retired him, and played a fortress for two years. Then I learned that he defended his hamlet successfully against 3 attacks. I wanted to unretire him, give his lordship away to someone else, and retire him in my fort.

But right now that's a little bit problematic. There is no major issues with retiring and unretiring adventurers, but things get weird with fortresses. My baron disappears and there is no way to assign or promote a new one. Random hostile visitors pop up. Cabinets and chests become unbuilt. All alcohol is gone. Stuff like that. And that kinda puts a dent on my new "build a fortress then generate several adventurers from it who go out into the world to kick megabeast ass, rampage in goblin settlements, chew bubblegum, and retire back in the fortress after" idea.

Considering these bugs have been around for years, is it something that we are just gonna have to live with? I've never been disappointed with a DF update, but the dream way to play this game for me has been this. And every update I check if there are developments regarding the retire/unretire mechanics, history generation, etc. After not playing the game for years, I saw that the new version gives you the ability to attack sites (ability to affect history? yes please) which gave me a DF boner again and I thrust right back into the game. But I had my excitement cut short after witnessing what I mentioned above.

According to Mantis these bugs have been around for 3 years so right now it's fair to say they will probably be fixed as a byproduct of a major update. Toady does this sometimes when a bug gets automatically fixed when he overhauls a major mechanic.

I don't know what I'm asking here. I guess I'm just bummed that my dream is probably not going to be realized before I graduate and have a job and no free time (which is like a year later if all goes according to plan). So, yeah. I'm excited for the myth and magic update as much as the next guy, but honestly I'm just ctrl+f'ing the dev logs and changelogs whenever they come out with the keywords like "retire" and "bug"

I know DF is a long-term project where you gotta be in for the long haul (I've been playing for 9 years on and off and it's amazing how far the game has come) but honestly I'd be more excited about a big boring bug squashing and stability update than an exciting "do literally everything!" magic update.

So I guess my question is, has there been any update regarding the plans for retire/unretire mechanics and adventurer/fortress mode interaction? Roadmap on the main site is mostly about new features that will take years to complete.

And do you have any unconventional ways of having fun with DF but you kinda feel left out because it's not a major focus?

[Fleeting Frames]

Iirc there's dfhack command to mark map as lair; have you tried whether it helps?

And no update to my relatively little knowledge.

[Leatra]

I could give it a shot. I guess that calls for some science. There might be a way to make the the transition of unretiring less problematic with some dfhack wizardry, or at least reduce the severity of some bugs.

I once tried retiring and immediately unretiring without going into adventurer mode to see what would happen. The only bug that I remember was the cabinets and such dismantling itself. Alcohol might have disappeared too. I didn't think of checking it. But the widely reported hostile random visitors thing didn't happen. My baron didn't disappear as well.

So the cause of the bug might be going into adventurer mode or visiting a retired fort in adventurer mode.

I was hoping that Toady said something about the issue but the bug has "acknowledged" status and the priority is not low, so I guess there is hope.

One day when the game is developed enough for it to be interesting, and the bugs are squashed, I'll generate a 1 year old world and play it with several different adventurers and forts to witness and shape the development of a world for a hundred years.

[Fleeting Frames]

All containers empty themselves; the alcohol isn't really really gone but just dumped on the floor.

Normal retire-unretire can definitely cause the "hostile merchants", but it doesn't always happen. It also resets on-embark pathing map, which can massively boost your fps. Or the overall impact may sometimes also lower your fps; best confirmation is testing since forts are unique.

Last I saw (in Succession world), post-worldgen there is the issue of lack of off-site births and new historical units coming into being. It's kinda immersion-breaking to see in legends, even if I'm not much of a RPer.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Wait, nobody is born after worldgen? That doesn't fit with Toady changing the external birth offloading to only happen at the season change and not constantly. Did I misunderstand either you or Toady?

[Shonai_Dweller]

Wait, nobody is born after worldgen? That doesn't fit with Toady changing the external birth offloading to only happen at the season change and not constantly. Did I misunderstand either you or Toady?

Births started in 2014. It's in 2012 devblog, so been going on 6 years. Living world, remember?
There's even a new function introduced recently to shift the updating of files to autosave when the sheer number of them becomes so much it induces lag.


--edit
Although, will check my own world later. Toady saw masses of off-site births slowing down one of my worlds, so it's happening sometimes but perhaps not recording them in Legends?

What is it you've discovered, FleetingFrames?  No births and no new histfigs (besides those discovered by players in fortress/adventurer)?

[Fleeting Frames]

Mind you, that was before Toady's latest changes, but feel free to DL the latest save from Succession world yourself.

Given in my 4303 world human population in world raised in-between my last two checks, they're happening but not in legends is my guess.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Mind you, that was before Toady's latest changes, but feel free to DL the latest save from Succession world yourself.

Given in my 4303 world human population in world raised in-between my last two checks, they're happening but not in legends is my guess.

Are new sites forming? You'll surely get new histfigs when that happens. I've been getting two or three pages of new sites in Legends Mode after a year or so of playing throughout 44.x. releases.

Maybe you've hit a total world pop cap of some kind.

--edit
Population increases by themselves won't show in Legends. Only histfigs are recorded. Everyone else is an abstract pop number.

[Fleeting Frames]

New sites forming and new histfigs, yes. New births, no. It's not visible initially but when the worldgen ended in year 2, it is year 50+ and nobody outside player forts has birthdate after 2....(Of course, for worlds like archcrystals, void events like merchants and sieges will generate non-citizen histfigs with birthdates after that in player fort)

Population increases (and decreases) are shown in exported sites and pops .txt, which I compared.

[Shonai_Dweller]

New sites forming and new histfigs, yes. New births, no. It's not visible initially but when the worldgen ended in year 2, it is year 50+ and nobody outside player forts has birthdate after 2....(Of course, for worlds like archcrystals, void events like merchants and sieges will generate non-citizen histfigs with birthdates after that in player fort)

Population increases (and decreases) are shown in exported sites and pops .txt, which I compared.

Is anyone born a histfig?

That only happens when an event occurs. And there's less events going on during play than in initial worldgen. Depends on the population of your world but when your population pool has thousands of eligible pops who might go reclaim a site, the chances of it being a child are nil (so no-one for the first 12 years or so) and someone born recently, fairly low.

However, I will check this when I have a world going. One of my races has a very low max age, so would be the best place to spot a "new" pop becoming a histfig.

[mikekchar]

One thing to keep in mind about the unretire "bugs" is that many of them are intentional.  This includes the dismantled chests, the emptied containers (including booze) and many others.  I think Toady wants to *intentionally* make it difficult to trivially retire and unretire a fortress (yes, I disagree with that idea too).  However, most of the intentional issues are not a big problem.  Basically, you need to make sure you have some plants in the fortress (or a way to get them quickly) and make booze.  If you can't guarantee making booze right away, then make sure that there is a water source for your dwarfs.  You need to reinstall all of the furniture.  You need to reassign all of the beds (that one seems like a bug to me, because they appear assigned, but actually aren't).  It takes me about 2-3 months of game time to get everything back in order, but it's not actually a big deal.  I've retired and unretired a single fortress half a dozen times and it was perfectly fine (I used to go on an adventure every year -- often with the same adventurer).  Dwarfs will also leave your fortress (especially royalty) and some dwarfs (or other sentient creatures) may join.  I think this is also intended behaviour.

On the other hand, there are some bugs.  Merchants (sometimes a *lot* of merchants) may join your fortress and they will never be productive.  They just hang out causing problems.  They will petition to stay, but you will never be able to assign tasks to them.  Not sure if you can banish them in the latest version (would be insanely nice).  This is by far the biggest problem.  I arrange accidents for them.  The other main bug is the hostile/non-hostile visitors.  If you put a cage trap next to them, they will eventually step into it.  You can then pasture them somewhere.  They make great guards.  But other than that, they are live training for your military.  Finally, "owned" goods can sometimes be unmovable.  This is especially bad with food because it rots, causing miasma.  If you try to build something on the same spot as the unmovable good, it will usually get shifted and at that resets its ownership.  I think you can probably also fix the problem with DFHack (I don't use that, though).

The actual bugs are annoying, but not actually a serious problem (with the exception of the unmovable objects, which can sometimes be tricky to shift).  I mean there are far worse issues in the game than these.  It's just a matter of grinding between each adventure.  I don't think it's going to be fixed in the next 5 years or so.

But yeah, this is the thing I would like improved more than anything else, so I can relate.

[darkflagrance]

One thing to keep in mind about the unretire "bugs" is that many of them are intentional.  This includes the dismantled chests, the emptied containers (including booze) and many others.  I think Toady wants to *intentionally* make it difficult to trivially retire and unretire a fortress (yes, I disagree with that idea too).  However, most of the intentional issues are not a big problem.  Basically, you need to make sure you have some plants in the fortress (or a way to get them quickly) and make booze.  If you can't guarantee making booze right away, then make sure that there is a water source for your dwarfs.  You need to reinstall all of the furniture.  You need to reassign all of the beds (that one seems like a bug to me, because they appear assigned, but actually aren't).  It takes me about 2-3 months of game time to get everything back in order, but it's not actually a big deal.  I've retired and unretired a single fortress half a dozen times and it was perfectly fine (I used to go on an adventure every year -- often with the same adventurer).  Dwarfs will also leave your fortress (especially royalty) and some dwarfs (or other sentient creatures) may join.  I think this is also intended behaviour.

On the other hand, there are some bugs.  Merchants (sometimes a *lot* of merchants) may join your fortress and they will never be productive.  They just hang out causing problems.  They will petition to stay, but you will never be able to assign tasks to them.  Not sure if you can banish them in the latest version (would be insanely nice).  This is by far the biggest problem.  I arrange accidents for them.  The other main bug is the hostile/non-hostile visitors.  If you put a cage trap next to them, they will eventually step into it.  You can then pasture them somewhere.  They make great guards.  But other than that, they are live training for your military.  Finally, "owned" goods can sometimes be unmovable.  This is especially bad with food because it rots, causing miasma.  If you try to build something on the same spot as the unmovable good, it will usually get shifted and at that resets its ownership.  I think you can probably also fix the problem with DFHack (I don't use that, though).

The actual bugs are annoying, but not actually a serious problem (with the exception of the unmovable objects, which can sometimes be tricky to shift).  I mean there are far worse issues in the game than these.  It's just a matter of grinding between each adventure.  I don't think it's going to be fixed in the next 5 years or so.

But yeah, this is the thing I would like improved more than anything else, so I can relate.

Do any of the bugs cause issues with FPS upon resuming a fortress? I can imagine the merchants clogging up pathfinding and the population of the map in general.

[mikekchar]

Not that I'm aware of.  Merchants are just like any other dwarf in your fortress, but since they are idle, they mostly hang out in the tavern or the temple.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Can you banish them now? That would help speed up unretirement cleanup.

[Ulfarr]

Do any of the bugs cause issues with FPS upon resuming a fortress? I can imagine the merchants clogging up pathfinding and the population of the map in general.

There are some unretire bugs that could result in fps issues, but their severity varies a lot. In one of my forts, I had an open magma pool in the 3rd cavern, which started to overflow after I reclaimed the fort (it's an old bug), flooding the cavern and setting everything on fire. It wasn't a game breaking issue but it did have an effect in my fps.