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Author Topic: Government Types  (Read 31896 times)

Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #150 on: August 27, 2018, 07:06:17 am »

I've been gone a week for vacation and gave some people(won't name names) the opportunity to give scientific sources to back up their claims, but all I find is walls of text that basically boils down to "My opinion is that it is this way so I don't have to prove anything to you." ...

I keep giving your sort of people the benefit of the doubt, I seriously want to believe that you guys have something substantial to back up your damning assertions, but I'm always disappointed to find the same emotional arguments over and over.
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #151 on: August 27, 2018, 07:27:19 pm »

What about a government type where an avatar of a deity rules the country?
I wonder if there's a name for that...
*note to self; research mythical governance types*
I’d assume it would be something along the lines of “deiocracy”
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Detoxicated

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #152 on: August 27, 2018, 08:55:33 pm »

So,
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167286124002
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1111/1467-9280.00366
So yea there are studies that oppose the study you provided, so no definitive answer can be given on that subject, even though there is evidence pointing to the correlations of higher aggression and violent games...
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 08:57:42 pm by Detoxicated »
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #153 on: August 28, 2018, 02:17:23 am »

What about a government type where an avatar of a deity rules the country?
I wonder if there's a name for that...
*note to self; research mythical governance types*
I’d assume it would be something along the lines of “deiocracy”

The word is theocracy.  (Deus is Latin, theos is Greek)

I don't know if there is a Greek word for a physical deity as opposed to an abstract one. Seems to me that the Greeks wouldn't have really needed a distinction.

GoblinCookie

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #154 on: August 28, 2018, 07:24:04 am »

GoblinCookie needs to stop having people tell him what he actually thinks. Hes all like the brain cant tell the differance blah blah blah. Well Look I being myself can say with certainty that I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between real life and a game. You are not us. I am my self. Detoxicated is himself. KittyTac is himself. If we say we aren't sympathizing with a dictator when we want the ability to be an evil overlord in DF we aren't, well atleast I'm not. Here is another example. Lets say I play this game made by Neo-Nazis called ethnic cleansing. I play it a little bit and  im pretty sure I wouldn't once think: Maybe the Nazi's were not that bad they only wanted to kill all the Jews and blacks.

It seems people would rather talk about video game violence instead of governments after-all.   ::) ::)

We aren't talking about you becoming a Nazi, we are talking about you assimilating the mind of a Nazi into your brain.  The Nazis weren't the only people to commit terrible atrocities, all the major powers fighting against the Nazis committed terrible atrocities themselves (the fire bombing of Dresden, the nukes in Japan, the post-war execution of his own released prisoners by Stalin). 

Im rather sure violence has nothing to do with aggressiveness. Maybe to an extent desensitization. Think of it this way. If you have Quake. But you remove all weapons but the heart and it shoots a ray of hearts and you must love (to there point where they explode into rainbows and hearts) your opponent as much as possible and the game has no blood and its a nice peaceful meadow you love(fight each other in). People are still going to get full of Adrenalin because there goals conflict. Because you cant love your opponent as much as possible when he trys to love you. So you still going to get people screaming in chat and calling each other fags. And look the first violent game ive played was Call Of Duty: Black Ops when I was 6 and we just got an Xbox 360. And I can assure you. I would rather stay out of violence in real life I'm terrified by it, its horrible.

Also who financed these studies? I'm rather curious. Also these studies are from 2010. Any newer ones?

There is a study I now can't access due to a paywall that failed to find any connection between video games and violence, which worked similarly to your above scenario, they took the same game as re-skinned it so that it was 'nonviolent', but all other mechanics were the same.  They did this because all the existing studies which proved the link to video games had to use different games, so could not control for things like difficulty.

This is of course fundamentally flawed because it assumes that the effect works on a graphical level rather than a mechanical level.  A reskinned violent game is still mechanically the same, which is what the experimenters wanted.  But in being mechanically the same, we will end up with the same effect if the effect is mechanical not graphical.  The null-effects of this particular study, establish that it is the mechanics that the brain responds to rather than the graphics; it is the conflict itself that is important, not whether it is presented using lots of realistic gore. 

That means that we cannot simply dismiss DF simply because of it's ASCII graphics.  If the player assumes the role of a bloody tyrant, he will end up thinking like one, even if he is only oppressing little :)s.

I've been gone a week for vacation and gave some people(won't name names) the opportunity to give scientific sources to back up their claims, but all I find is walls of text that basically boils down to "My opinion is that it is this way so I don't have to prove anything to you." ...

I keep giving your sort of people the benefit of the doubt, I seriously want to believe that you guys have something substantial to back up your damning assertions, but I'm always disappointed to find the same emotional arguments over and over.

That is because we basically have already won, the link is proven; this is because a negative result from one study does not argue with a positive result from another study.  If there is a link between two things, then we must determine the correct methodology to follow and the correct methodology is only provable to be correct by it's ability to produce a positive result.  So if I with my methodologically correct study find a link, your ability to produce an infinite number of studies unable to detect a link does not cancel out my correct study; it proves you are using the incorrect methodology to detect a link.

This is a vitally important principle, if we do not accept it then any wealthy special interests (Monsanto for instance) can disprove anything that proves their substances are harmful, simply because they can mass-produce flawed studies that reliably fail to detect any effect (since they are too flawed to do so).  If my studies are rubbish, they will not work to determine a link and I can fund as many rubbish studies as I wish. 

The people who think violent video games have no effect do so because they are motivated to do so by their love of violent video games, while those on the other side have no real motive to invent a link without having a reason.  The irony here is that the principle involved was known about long before even the invention of video games.  This is because of the effect of a book called the the Sorrows of Young Werther.

In this book, the protagonist ends up committing suicide because his unrequited love ends up marrying another man.  As a result of this books publication, there was a spike in suicides in Europe.  The general rule of all media is thus, be very careful who you make the protagonist because the audience assimilates the protagonist into themselves.  If the protagonist is suicidal, the audience becomes suicidal, if the protagonist is violent, the audience becomes violent, if the protagonist is peaceful then the audience becomes peaceful, if the protagonist is optimistic the audience becomes optimistic and if the protagonist is pessimistic, the audience becomes optimistic.
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KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #155 on: August 28, 2018, 09:13:58 am »

The thing is: Toady most likely does not share your views. So your ramblings will not have any effect on the end product. Trying to reconvince Toady is like trying to stop a runaway train by throwing pebbles in its path.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #156 on: August 28, 2018, 09:27:57 am »

One study does not a proof make. False positives exist, by falsification, error, and chance.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #157 on: August 28, 2018, 10:14:13 am »

The point is all of each sides' certainty has been disproven so nobody is a winner, which is great because losing is fun...

So since we cleared that argument,
How do you guys feel about the possibility of judges? I find it weird that the captain of the guard merely decides who gets hammered. There should be courts and also the judge might overrule mandates if necessary...
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Azerty

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #158 on: August 28, 2018, 03:34:49 pm »

The point is all of each sides' certainty has been disproven so nobody is a winner, which is great because losing is fun...

So since we cleared that argument,
How do you guys feel about the possibility of judges? I find it weird that the captain of the guard merely decides who gets hammered. There should be courts and also the judge might overrule mandates if necessary...

In smaller communities, the leader himself would be the judge while in larger ones the leader would name a specialized judge.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #159 on: August 28, 2018, 03:51:24 pm »

Yes. Villages shouldn't have their own proper judges.
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #160 on: August 29, 2018, 10:18:34 am »

Is GC seriously trying to suggest that as soon as one study ever has found a positive correlation then it is the “correct” study and every other study is untrustworthy?
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George_Chickens

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #161 on: August 29, 2018, 12:30:28 pm »

''We are socialists, we are enemies of the capatilist economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseenly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions ''

-Urist McHitler
Just for reference, this is an Urist McStrasser quote misattributed to Urist McHitler. But back to an increasing issue I see, why is it that the same user(s) constantly derail threads via cherrypicked arguments and ignoring one another's sources? This is getting crazy, I keep seeing it happen again and again and again, and it's strangling relevant discussion in the crib.

The point is all of each sides' certainty has been disproven so nobody is a winner, which is great because losing is fun...

So since we cleared that argument,
How do you guys feel about the possibility of judges? I find it weird that the captain of the guard merely decides who gets hammered. There should be courts and also the judge might overrule mandates if necessary...
IMO, it should depend primarily on cultural conditions and the 'need' for them, as well as viability. It does not make sense to have a judge in every peasant hamlet off the coast when the peasants can just tie a noose and let superstition be the jury. However, in larger, developed cities and such, and with the right values? Absolutely.

I imagine societies biased towards authority and obedience may simply rely on local nobility/authority figures to deal out ultimate justice rather than a clear judicial system. To me, simply having appointable judges in fort mode feels a little too rigid. I'd rather have my dorfs somehow decide on their justice system to a degree with me influencing it. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 12:42:16 pm by George_Chickens »
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #162 on: August 29, 2018, 01:17:31 pm »

Absolutely,
your point about obedience and authority people makes total sense. Maybe freedom loving societies tend to use more judges and laws to uphold and secure said freedoms.
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George_Chickens

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #163 on: August 29, 2018, 01:26:55 pm »

Perhaps that is a topic too philosophical for DF to tackle as of present. What exactly is freedom in the context of the DF world and in the context of the cultures within it? For that to be satisfactory, in my opinion, it may be necessary to add some cultural perceptions to cultural values.

For example, a culture which values lawbreaking, despises hierarchy and values freedom may not view freedom in the same way as an obedient, religious society. The former may view such freedom as freedom from judges, where as the latter could possibly view it as freedom to be trialed by the standards of your own religion.

I imagine Toady has already considered such things and will surprise us all with something far greater than we can write here.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 01:44:25 pm by George_Chickens »
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #164 on: August 29, 2018, 05:03:24 pm »

Is GC seriously trying to suggest that as soon as one study ever has found a positive correlation then it is the “correct” study and every other study is untrustworthy?
I think so. That is a ridiculously asymmetrical burden of proof. And there's the essential symmetry which belies all non-truth-seeking behaviors: I could make the same argument GC did, with just as much force behind it (if not more). Therefore, wrong statements can be supported with this argument just as easily as right statements. This means that "this argument supports my statement" isn't meaningful evidence toward the statement being true.
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