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Author Topic: Government Types  (Read 31824 times)

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2018, 07:50:55 am »

Well, I wouldn't stop you if you pursued virtual torture... Don't pursue me for not engaging that activity myself...
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KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2018, 07:53:53 am »

Well, I wouldn't stop you if you pursued virtual torture... Don't pursue me for not engaging that activity myself...
But those who WANT virtual torture could still use an option. If you don't want to do it, don't. Simple as that.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 09:27:07 am by KittyTac »
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2018, 09:22:00 am »

True.
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Rowanas

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2018, 11:00:30 am »

It'd be a little odd for every race in the game to have ethics regarding torture and then there to be no torture.  Although given all the awful things you can do to someone with wrestling, I doubt there's very much else you could do without going into absurd and specific agonies that would be a waste of valuable development time.

I'd also like to add that GC's statements about what people would and wouldn't want to play are more indicative of their own harrowing psychological profile than anyone else's.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2018, 12:22:23 pm »

Best leave it at that.

So anyway, I think for a functioning kingdom there should be bookkeepers that send out messengers to find out about the settlements. They should also control taxes but of course there could be other factions in control of this honour. Not all economies should depend on taxes. The vassal keeps contact with the king through messengers. I feel that messengers should become an outright new profession
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Rowanas

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2018, 04:36:36 pm »

In order not to bloat things up, it might be best to have all messengers be plenipotentiary ambassadors, much as tradebrokers and liaisons currently are.  Using the same system as we use for trade, non-local nobility (or local nobility, honestly) could set a "trade deal" in which they get whatever they've requested, and you get sod all, thus simulating taxes, levies and whatnot.  The cultural and personal qualities of your nation and king would determine what, how much or even if, things are requested.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2018, 04:38:22 pm »

...
Racism is either nonexistent or very weak in the medieval times.  Someone failing to depict racism in the medieval era then is pretty much historically accurate.  Other things however that are unacceptable in modern times, sexism, homophobia and general religious bigotry are very much rife.  The rise of racism is actually an interesting inversion of the normal story of societal progress towards the better.
...

That is one reason why historical fiction generally makes me uneasy.  You don't want to identify, empathise with and hence think like people who are quite realistically worse than you are simply because they are more like you than villain-antagonists.  That results in a kind of reactionary hybridisation, by which we in the modern world instead of moving forward end up resurrecting elements of the past which we left behind for a good reason. 
...
I would LOVE to see your source for your claim that racism barely existed in medieval times
And I would also LOVE to see your source for your claim that fiction influences reality.

Seriously, out of genuine scholarly curiosity I actually would love to see those sources.
Because every time I've come across someone making those claims they've either turned to ad hominem attacks or they have completely ignored my request
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2018, 04:50:41 pm »

Are you really questioning the ability of fiction to change the perception of the world?

I would recommend you simulations and simulacra by baudrilliard to you if you have never come it. Seriously, fiction is just as real as fact in the perception of the single individual...
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2018, 05:17:58 pm »

Are you really questioning the ability of fiction to change the perception of the world?

I would recommend you simulations and simulacra by baudrilliard to you if you have never come it. Seriously, fiction is just as real as fact in the perception of the single individual...
My curiosity revolves around the apparent claim that fictional violence and hatred turns otherwise peaceful and harmless citizens into vicious murdering beasts.
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KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2018, 10:06:58 pm »

Are you really questioning the ability of fiction to change the perception of the world?

I would recommend you simulations and simulacra by baudrilliard to you if you have never come it. Seriously, fiction is just as real as fact in the perception of the single individual...
It isn't. I am violent in DF, but I'm not violent IRL.
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KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2018, 10:08:19 pm »

It'd be a little odd for every race in the game to have ethics regarding torture and then there to be no torture.  Although given all the awful things you can do to someone with wrestling, I doubt there's very much else you could do without going into absurd and specific agonies that would be a waste of valuable development time.

I'd also like to add that GC's statements about what people would and wouldn't want to play are more indicative of their own harrowing psychological profile than anyone else's.
But only the player can torture things. I'd like for NPCs to be able to do that.
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Bumber

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2018, 11:47:26 pm »

The latter kind of divisions I am uneasy about because you will never be playing the slave but instead one of the masters, since only the masters have stories that we would actually wish to play.
Tell that to Spartacus. Playing as the underclass can make things more interesting.

Even better if you get a tragic backstory of betrayal that got you there.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 12:02:40 am by Bumber »
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Rowanas

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2018, 06:08:31 am »

If I recall correctly, there was a study which indicated that violent games were an outlet for violent tendencies.  Just imagine if a child were full of energy and instead of letting them burn it off in a park, we kept them locked in a small room.  It's obvious which one solves the problem of having too much energy and which one results in penning it up until the child literally explodes, throwing gibs everywhere and slapping passersby with arcing limbs.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

thompson

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #88 on: August 17, 2018, 06:18:43 am »

The latter kind of divisions I am uneasy about because you will never be playing the slave but instead one of the masters, since only the masters have stories that we would actually wish to play.
Tell that to Spartacus. Playing as the underclass can make things more interesting.

Even better if you get a tragic backstory of betrayal that got you there.

Then you could set out with 6 of your comrades to strike the Earth and found you own anarchist utopia, only to face the wrath of your former masters. I'd love to see the engravings on those walls.

My take on GoblinCookie's claim that racism didn't exist in the middle ages is that he is referring to white supremacism. If that's the case, then I'm inclined to agree. I don't feel that sort of thing is necessary in game (except amongst evil creatures). Other forms of discrimination should definitely be included, and systems of government could be build around discriminatory social hierarchies. Presumably civilization values will be more varied once the Customs arc comes around. In that case, we could have a slider or something to determine how dystopian we want our social order, or how much variance, and so on.

This is only tangentially related to forms of government, but getting the social hierarchy right is essential for any truly engaging political system.

It is worth remembering that there ARE evil civs as well, so we will need some truly awful forms of government too. I'd imagine anything run by a demon would be some form of totalarianism where slavery is widespread and disloyalty is punishable by torture and death. The law would probably only be loosely enforced for crimes committed against the lower classes. A goblin peasant would more-or-less have to fend for itself. Perhaps military service is viewed as a means of advancement, which reinforces their cultural affinity with violence.

Dwarves should have more egalitarian forms of governance (partially democratic, rule by wise elders, or monarchies which are not too despotic), humans a little more despotic but oppression would only be viewed as a means to an ends. For goblins, oppression is the ends. All of this should be open for modders to influence.

Specific forms of government for each civ could differ as well, so two neighboring dwarf civs could both have monarchs, bit one has a parliamentary democracy with a prime minister and cabinet, while the other could have a council of Dukes who manage day to day governance but the monarch has veto rights. In another civ the monarch may be purely ceremonial, but you could have a Meiji restoration-type revolution to restore the monarch to power. Another civ will have no monarch at all

From a development perspective, these different forms of government would only differ in terms of a few tags, which could be procedurally generated and change dynamically during play in response to world events. Having an infinite number of variations is thus straightforward. The behaviour associated with each tag is what needs to be programmed in, so the more tags the more work for Toady. If the framework is well designed, you could mix-and-match tags to allow a great deal of variability without putting it in by hand. Specific government models could be used as inspiration for the tags, but may not exist in game with that specific arrangement.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2018, 06:29:47 am »

I agree with you. Especially on the part where few tags could describe many different systems.
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