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Author Topic: Corporate Personality/Values.  (Read 1412 times)

GoblinCookie

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Corporate Personality/Values.
« on: August 05, 2018, 06:59:58 am »

It does not really do to simply model rebellions by dwarves according to whether they personally are happy, because that basically means we can do whatever we wish as long as we give them nice dining halls and plenty of booze, which is not how things realistically would work.  As a solution to this problem I propose that site governments be given a corporate personality.  This would mean that the fortress would have an 'alignment' in terms both personality and values, which contrasts with that of the individual dwarves. 

To begin with the values are set to that of our civilization and the personality is the mean personality of of it's dominant species (so humans are set to 50 at everything).  Various actions and abstract decisions made by the player in play would adjust the corporate personality/values of the government in a given direction.  If an individual dwarf personality and values deviate from that of the corporate personality, then that dwarf's loyalty to his government is undermined, causing him to become prone to rebellion. 

The rebellions themselves work in the powderkeg/spark fashion.  An individual dwarf decides to rebel and keeps this fact initially secret from the player.  Dwarves with subordinate positions not only can lead rebellions while retaining their position but they are far more likely to lead rebellions than the average dwarf is.  The ultimate leaders of the site cannot lead rebellions, but instead becoming sufficiently disloyal causes them to resign from the government.  Subordinate position holders that are particularly honest in their values will also resign the government in a similar fashion if they become sufficiently disloyal/are recruited into a rebellion.  It goes without saying that you cannot reappoint a resigned leader to his former position. 

Rebellions start with an individual, aside from being a subordinate position holder another factor that encourages rebellion leader is having lots of friends.  The rebel leader will recruit followers from the disloyal dwarves, whether they are happy or not in the course of normal conversation and socializing, which will be invisible to the site government.  Once the rebellion has sufficient numbers and strength it will make a bid for power, loyal dwarves will fight for the government, disloyal dwarves even if not already recruited into the rebellion will oppose the government and dwarves who have mediocre loyalty will sit it out. 

Squads will follow the lead of their commander, the difference between squad members and ordinary dwarves is that mediocre loyalty squad members follow whatever stance taken by their commander, while both loyal and disloyal squad members will follow the lead of their commander should he decide to stay neutral.  The outcome of a successful rebellion in a player's site depends upon the state of the site, in all instances a successful rebellion causes the site to become unplayable but how they behave depends upon how complete the site is.

If the site is considered incomplete for the current population, that is to say there is insufficient furniture, rooms, constructed space etc, then the rebel dwarves will abandon the site and build a new site nearby, this will be a hillocks if the fortress population is small; the original site becomes a ruin and new dwarves can be moved in by the player (but not by anyone else).  If the site is considered complete for the current population then they will continue to live there and can be visited in adventure mode; but the population will be capped at the total number of dwarves supported by the architectural layout when the player was overthrown. 
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Detoxicated

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Re: Corporate Personality/Values.
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2018, 07:08:46 am »

I could see corporate personalities in smaller entities as well. Temples could have them too, and when there is that rebellion you described it creates a shism in that religion, or the leadership of the temple is replaced, or the religion begins to shift to expansionism, or...
Same goes for bigger musical, lyrical, dancing troupes.
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KittyTac

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Re: Corporate Personality/Values.
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2018, 08:15:53 am »

+1.
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Batgirl1

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Re: Corporate Personality/Values.
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2018, 10:59:45 am »

It does not really do to simply model rebellions by dwarves according to whether they personally are happy, because that basically means we can do whatever we wish as long as we give them nice dining halls and plenty of booze, which is not how things realistically would work. 

If I may disagree, I'm fairly sure that is exactly how real life works: "bread and circuses" and all that. Rebellions, afaik, tend to happen when the power structure in place is unable or unwilling to meet the needs of certain people or groups, and if another system steps in to meet those needs -- or even just promises to -- you have yourself a revolution.

I propose a set of codified laws reflecting the "corporate personality" you're talking about, and dwarfs in positions of power who disagree with them may try to change them. Common dorfs whose values don't jive with these laws may either break them, or keep them and grumble, thus causing a negative thought; but only a dorf who's head is overwhelmingly full of negative thoughts will lead a rebellion, which dorfs who are slightly less unhappy but still loyal to him may join. My $0.02.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Corporate Personality/Values.
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2018, 08:49:41 pm »

No, it's not enough to just give citizens nice stuff and booze to make them happy and complacent...
..you need to give them mindless reality tv-shows as well... XD
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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nik the dwarf

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Re: Corporate Personality/Values.
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2018, 10:26:54 pm »

This gives me fond memories of Colonization. The goal of the game was to grow your colony and rebel against the Old World.

 If the corporate culture, dissent, and rebellion are possible like OP suggests, then I'd disagree with the player losing control of the fortress. Instead, let the player overseer decide whether to remain loyal to the civ, or to side with the rebels. Then perhaps the player can only command the faction so chosen.

Maybe that was my goal for this fortress, slowly changing culture and sowing discord, and leading rebellion against the crown.
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Detoxicated

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Re: Corporate Personality/Values.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 02:46:46 am »

Perhaps there could be diplomats from rebelling states that would try to swoon you to their side.
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Detoxicated

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Re: Corporate Personality/Values.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 06:33:23 pm »

Well I guess most things should start as soft laws, whereas each religion has rather solid laws. The religions try to shape the laws of the kingdom through priests promoting certain values. The king or law giver can take them up on a whim. Sometimes when he creates a law for one religion, another becomes forbidden. Now these individuals start to leave to places where they may continue their worahipping or they revolt.

Same could go for troupes of poets. A band of goblins might consider murder justified but then they get outlawed within one country. Now the leader either is so loyal to the king that he changes its bands stance or he is likely to rebel or leave.

To shape the morals of people the religions use their priests as well as books and art. They write books on the religion but with an undertone of one value so it shapes the thoughts of a person in one direction in the likes of the writers wishes.

Religious books could quench the need for contact with the gods.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 06:37:49 pm by Detoxicated »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Corporate Personality/Values.
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2018, 05:49:17 am »

I could see corporate personalities in smaller entities as well. Temples could have them too, and when there is that rebellion you described it creates a shism in that religion, or the leadership of the temple is replaced, or the religion begins to shift to expansionism, or...
Same goes for bigger musical, lyrical, dancing troupes.

In order to solve the problem of what happens if you fortress is just a field when you are overthrown I came up with the idea of the rebels abandoning the site and starting a new site nearby.  A good compromise for when the player is overthrown is to give the player the ability to surrender when things look hopeless and then set up a new site with loyalist dwarves.

If I may disagree, I'm fairly sure that is exactly how real life works: "bread and circuses" and all that. Rebellions, afaik, tend to happen when the power structure in place is unable or unwilling to meet the needs of certain people or groups, and if another system steps in to meet those needs -- or even just promises to -- you have yourself a revolution.

I never said that ordinary unhappiness did not undermine loyalty as well. 

The historical answer is, no it isn't.  Rebellions tend not to be led at least by people who are least at the social level of the middle-class, that means that rebellions contain a number of people who have no shortage of creature-comforts.  Indeed these people were prepared to sacrifice their creature comforts in order to rebel because they believed it was the right thing to do. 

Unhappiness on it's own should lead to crime and emigration, not to rebellion.  Unhappy disloyal people should be inclined to mindless rioting, but happy disloyal people should incline to launch deliberate and planned coups. 

I propose a set of codified laws reflecting the "corporate personality" you're talking about, and dwarfs in positions of power who disagree with them may try to change them. Common dorfs whose values don't jive with these laws may either break them, or keep them and grumble, thus causing a negative thought; but only a dorf who's head is overwhelmingly full of negative thoughts will lead a rebellion, which dorfs who are slightly less unhappy but still loyal to him may join. My $0.02.

Laws are reflected in the corporate personality, but the corporate personality must be kept seperate from laws.  That is because passing laws is not everything that the government does, it does other things (indeed having laws at all will upset certain people). Having actions reflected in the corporate personality is important because it means that we cannot just set all our laws to perfectly align with the average dwarf so that most people loyal, circumstances may force you to deviate from it. 

This gives me fond memories of Colonization. The goal of the game was to grow your colony and rebel against the Old World.

 If the corporate culture, dissent, and rebellion are possible like OP suggests, then I'd disagree with the player losing control of the fortress. Instead, let the player overseer decide whether to remain loyal to the civ, or to side with the rebels. Then perhaps the player can only command the faction so chosen.

Maybe that was my goal for this fortress, slowly changing culture and sowing discord, and leading rebellion against the crown.

This idea was about rebellions against your own site government, it is not about your site government rebelling against the civilization.  Your civilization has it's corporate personality, if you deviate from it it could happen that instead of you choosing to rebel against the civilization, the civilization may decide to suspend your autonomy because your corporate personality has undermined it's 'loyalty' to you. 
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