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[forgotten_idiot]

So is it possible to force dwarves into relationships somehow? I've tried burrowing them inside "friendship rooms", so they can idle while being adjacent to each other, but to no avail.

I wonder if Toady even knows relationships are broken...

[Shonai_Dweller]

So is it possible to force dwarves into relationships somehow? I've tried burrowing them inside "friendship rooms", so they can idle while being adjacent to each other, but to no avail.

I wonder if Toady even knows relationships are broken...

I take it you didn't read fotf this month?
Went something like this:

 June fotf: How come friendship is broken?
     Toady: Is it still broken, thought I fixed it.
      Forum: Deafening silence

 July fotf: How come friendship is still broken?
     Toady: Is it still broken? Thought I fixed it
     Patriklundell: Explains issue (but I haven't played since 44.05 so maybe it's working now)
   
Repeat for a few more months I guess. Hopefully Patrik's suggestion to test dwarves other than the starting seven will get somewhere though.

From my own observations of 44.11, they are building relationships without having to be locked up closely together ("passing acquaintance" contains a lot of hidden substeps apparently) but it seems to be far too slow. And even with a "best acquaintance" the insecure dorfs still get stressed about having no friends. I don't have actual data though, just playing the game.

Of course, I don't know how long it should take for a dwarf to become best friends. Seems like something that takes at least a few years of constant contact in regular fantasy fiction.

[Witty]

I think the underlining problem is that dwarves lack any social initiative. And as far as I'm aware, there isn't any system in place to accommodate this, so nothing is technically bugged up.

In real life, you generally find people you enjoy interacting with, and you seek out opportunities to do so. In DF, dwarves will just randomly socialize with whoever happens to be next to them in the tavern/temple/library/whatever. Two dwarves that could have been friends just don't because they're standing on opposite ends of the tavern, instead talking to people that'll be a social "deadend" forever. The chances that they'll both be in the tavern at the same time, and happen to stand next to one another is so slim in a normally functioning fort that it hardly happens.

There's also the issue that very, very few activities actually result in the dwarves talking to one another and building up a relationship. You'd think two miners that have worked side by side for three years would have some relationship with one another, but unless they've hung out in the tavern and stars aligned for their meeting - nope, nothing will happen.

 I think this is also why lovers that could marry take so long to actually do so. Again, these dwarves won't go out of their way to interact. So eventually, after randomly bumping each other over the course of a few years, they'll finally accumulate the social points or whatever to marry.

The best system, in my opinion, is one where dwarves would still randomly socialize, but would devote special time to socialize with dwarves that they actively enjoy interacting with, so passing acquaintances that have the potential to be friendships actually become so. A similar system could be used for lovers.

The starting seven obviously cheat this lack of initiative by forcing some abstract socialization for their relationships upon embark based on their personalities.

The bedrock for socializing and relationships are in place, but it actually needs the finish to work.

edit: it seems that Patriklundell basically iterated my exact thoughts a week ago, whoops. But as Toady said in his fotf reply, there are no short term plans to add more systems. So for now, relationships are just going to be half-baked.   

[mikekchar]

I thought the same as you Witty, but I tested 43.05 by (luckily) starting with 7 dwarfs who were not friends.  When I got migrants, I burrowed 7 of them in a completely different place (basically starting a new fortress).  When I got more migrants I did it again.  I can't remember if I ended up with 3 or 4 burrows.  But by the end of it (despite the fact that they were doing exactly the same things), the starting 7 became friends, the next burrow had one or two friends and the final burrow only had a couple of passing acquaintances.  At least in that version, it appears that as the fortress got more dwarfs, the ability to make friends diminished -- even though the interactions were identical.  Unfortunately, there were a lot of confounding factors (some dwarfs were related, etc) and I couldn't work out exactly what seemed to be causing the problem, but I came away convinced that there *was* a problem.  Probably I should do that test again and put up a save.  Not sure I have the time, unfortunately.

[PatrikLundell]

Hm, I don't like the sound of mikekchar's findings (the message, not to be confused with the messenger), as the base I and Witty thought we've seen is bad enough (although I think my thoughts couldn't really reiterate thoughts Witty hadn't yet had at that time ).
A repeat of the experiment where visitors are kept away would definitely be useful, although I don't think there's a great urgency.

Even if Toady doesn't have any immediate plans to add new socialization layers, I think it's still useful that he knows there is an issue, as it allows him to think about it on the back burner. I know my answer was rather suggestionish, but I saw no better way to describe what I think the problem with the current system is.

[SQman]

Don't know if it's too late to pitch in my two cents, but I actually had a success with a friendship room.

I locked 2 drows (modded race, shouldn't matter too much) in a 2x2 room, made the room a tavern, and the two went from strangers to lovers in a little more than a season.

Still, the only other relationship changes were two from the starting seven becoming lovers while idling by the wagon, and two migrants going from strangers to passing acquaintances while still having "new arrival" job, which means they were idling by the wagon.

The wagon is the key to all of this.

[Robsoie]

Something i don't know : are dwarven soldiers that are always sticking together through training/gob-killing gaining relationship/friendship through martial/warrior comradery (and so it is just not working as i saw no change in relationship after years of the same guys sticking together fortresses after fortresses) or is it not a feature Toady implemented in DF ?

[PatrikLundell]

Something i don't know : are dwarven soldiers that are always sticking together through training/gob-killing gaining relationship/friendship through martial/warrior comradery (and so it is just not working as i saw no change in relationship after years of the same guys sticking together fortresses after fortresses) or is it not a feature Toady implemented in DF ?

I assume training together is as useful for making friends as mining together, i.e. not (yet?) implemented.

[fearlesslittletoaster]

If somebody who has more time for DF than I do could test this it would be great, but I think I've found a solution to the problem. I call it the "socialization chamber." It's actually a 2x2 librarywith no books, tables, or any other furniture. The only activity that dwarves can perform in it is to idle next to other dwarves.

I've already confirmed doing so will meet the "spend time with people" and "spend time with friends/family" needs. Also dwarves rapidly gain acquaintance status with most of the fort if I have an active chamber, like within a couple months.

Only problem I have is that real life is kicking my butt time wise, and the fort I had testing this succumbed to trauma of a single Gorlak being torn apart by beak dogs before Toady made memories not broken. So, a call to all you folks without offspring or houses you are getting ready for sale, test the crap out of this!

[Bumber]

Still, the only other relationship changes were two from the starting seven becoming lovers while idling by the wagon, and two migrants going from strangers to passing acquaintances while still having "new arrival" job, which means they were idling by the wagon.

The wagon is the key to all of this.

The dwarven equivalent to a sports car.

[§k]

In df2012 two of my miners actually got married. I suppose they developed relationship from talking to each other on the way home when they finished a mining session.

So the system is probably still there.

[PatrikLundell]

In df2012 two of my miners actually got married. I suppose they developed relationship from talking to each other on the way home when they finished a mining session.

So the system is probably still there.

Not much of an indication, as the socializing system was overhauled when parties were tossed out and needs (and taverns, etc.) were introduced.

[FantasticDorf]

Something i don't know : are dwarven soldiers that are always sticking together through training/gob-killing gaining relationship/friendship through martial/warrior comradery (and so it is just not working as i saw no change in relationship after years of the same guys sticking together fortresses after fortresses) or is it not a feature Toady implemented in DF ?

They are meant to, they just dont anymore inexplicably.

> Changes that were required to force dwarves to pursue needs (ai fundamentals) somehow infringing upon this? Given how aggressive the system is, also sparring fufills a number of needs in itself.

Don't know if it's too late to pitch in my two cents, but I actually had a success with a friendship room.

I locked 2 drows (modded race, shouldn't matter too much) in a 2x2 room, made the room a tavern, and the two went from strangers to lovers in a little more than a season.

Good insights, but drows are different to dwarves so on a race with generic or different values (particularly if you ramped up the friendlyness and hedonistic lust civ value settings up) them becoming lovers rather than friends so quickly is pretty common.

Dwarves do not like personally held opinions different to their own due to intolerance facets (and will refute & argue over them quite a lot making them happy in the process filling a need to be quarrelsome) and typically have a extremely low desire to breed and rare desire to start families.

So liken dwarves to grumpy giant panda's who only breed in heat that only happens every 50 years, usually not being sober enough to remember their children's childhoods and questioning how their eldest children were even concieved or are related to them given by the time they have finally become sober they're now traumatised fully grown adults.

> So obviously liars able to obscure what they say get the furthest, but dwarven society severely dislikes lying.

> 2 dwarves per square in a socialisation zone is a rule like the 2x2 libraries show and my own 35 square furnitureless tavern which works a storm, 30 = 60 dwarves max capacity because they do not move & space out on the floor to talk to one another.


> Long story short, if a dwarf doesn't suffer a similar set of psychological traumas, reads a lot of indoctrinating books to accept a belief or by chance meet their soul-mate perhaps creepily similar to them, any form of meaningful social interaction probably isn't going to happen and you should request new dwarves from hillocks who breed normally having the AI do matchmaking for them.

[forgotten_idiot]

So I started a small fort with a maximum of 30 dwarves, and by the end of the 2nd year they slowly started to get to know each other.  Among the 18 dwarves there are 4 with 2 friends each, 4 with 1 friend each; and 3 guys with 5, 4 and 3 friends respectively. That actually sounds realistic, for true friendship is hard to come by and needs to be earned.

Also, I have a suspicion that opening of a library created a boost to relationships. Or maybe it is the small number of dwarves. Or both. Need to do more research on that.

[Feco]

Dwarves make friends.  They need to "socialize" in a tavern, best I can tell.

They're making friends in my current fort, at least.