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[Starver]

Hey look! A dead duck!

* Starver theatrically points towards the sky

[Bumber]

I think now's a good time to update the OP with some of the proposed models.

Hey look! A dead duck!

* Starver theatrically points towards the sky

https://youtu.be/PdydtDuj3VU?t=49s

[KittyTac]

Disregard.

[Thundercraft]

My suggestion:

Instead of having children inherit the last name of just one parent (be it father or mother), I'd really like to see them inherit a last name that is conjugated or blended - e.g., a portmanteau or combination of the last names of both the father and the mother. One possibility is the Double-barrelled name, of which there exists some different variations and cultural traditions in different parts of the world. One way is to combine the surnames of each parent - or part of each surname - with a hyphen. But there are other traditions, such as the Hispanic-American naming custom. (See the Compound surnames section of the Wikipedia article on Surnames for details.)

Of note, it may be worthwhile to check out this ABC News Australia article:
The six options for choosing your baby's surname divide opinion

It gives a good example of a modern naming convention, too:

"Our surnames are Wortsman and Waite — I use Vashti, my middle name, as a pen name — and we have given both our kids the last name of Waitsman," she said.

The primary reason that I suggest either a blended or a double-barrelled naming system is that it would make it relatively easy to keep track of both the father's side and mother's side of a child's lineage. That way, one could track lineages with a simple glance at names. In my mind, this is much preferable to installing and then inputting names of game characters into genealogy software, such as Family Tree Builder.

P.S.: Surnames for characters at world gen would still be randomized, of course. And, after several generations, I suppose we'd start to see some identical surname combinations. That could seem weird, especially in that it would imply them to be closely related when they may actually be several generations removed. Perhaps a blended or double-barreled surname convention should have a way to introduce a bit of "drift", such that the Fraternal and Maternal parts each gets altered slightly over generations. It should still be close enough to identify the family lines, though. Perhaps randomize the last consonant?

P.S.S.; To continue my argument for an easy way to track a child's lineage: A good reason to implement some sort of naming convention that indicates or suggests family relationships is that it should help with information overload. I'm reminded of this post:

...Like I want to get invested in my world, but when the human liaison comes and gives me news of the world that consists of pages and pages of text -- that mainly seem to consist of some place being conquered and dozens and dozens of refugees naming themselves something like the undulating sponges -- my eyes just glaze over and I skip it after reading a couple lines.

And then all my dwarves have their own likes and dislikes and relations and dreams and everything, but I've got like 150 of the little buggers, I can't even remember their names let alone that Bomrek Eribbasen is married to Deler Othdukingish has 3 kids, a bunch of various family members, is BFFs with Athel Eliseshtan...[snip]

[GoblinCookie]

My suggestion:

Instead of having children inherit the last name of just one parent (be it father or mother), I'd really like to see them inherit a last name that is conjugated or blended - e.g., a portmanteau or combination of the last names of both the father and the mother. One possibility is the Double-barrelled name, of which there exists some different variations and cultural traditions in different parts of the world. One way is to combine the surnames of each parent - or part of each surname - with a hyphen. But there are other traditions, such as the Hispanic-American naming custom. (See the Compound surnames section of the Wikipedia article on Surnames for details.)

Isn't that basically my proposal really? 

[Bumber]

My suggestion:

Instead of having children inherit the last name of just one parent (be it father or mother), I'd really like to see them inherit a last name that is conjugated or blended - e.g., a portmanteau or combination of the last names of both the father and the mother. One possibility is the Double-barrelled name, of which there exists some different variations and cultural traditions in different parts of the world. One way is to combine the surnames of each parent - or part of each surname - with a hyphen. But there are other traditions, such as the Hispanic-American naming custom. (See the Compound surnames section of the Wikipedia article on Surnames for details.)

Isn't that basically my proposal really?

I thought yours worked on some kind of hidden, random marriage name?

[SixOfSpades]

. . . I'd really like to see them inherit a last name that is conjugated or blended - e.g., a portmanteau or combination of the last names of both the father and the mother.

Isn't that basically my proposal really?

I thought yours worked on some kind of hidden, random marriage name?

GoblinCookie's convention wasn't random, it was one name per ancestor, arranged in a strict order. But that itself is very different from what Thundercraft mentioned, which is essentially each dwarf carrying two lineage names: One the same as (one of) their father's, and the other the same as (one of) their mother's.

[dragdeler]

I say they're very much alike in that you try to have everybody "everything" eleminating the chance to implement more cultural identity and lore. Because which of the lastnames have been chosen is barely indcative if you don't know the parents or the naming conventions. But if we keep it to allways 3 strings (firstname familynameA+B) I can live with it. And giggle at those odd case that might appear to indicate circular linearity if the strings and circumstances fit. We could have nice variations of recurring names tough to spice it up.

[GoblinCookie]

. . . I'd really like to see them inherit a last name that is conjugated or blended - e.g., a portmanteau or combination of the last names of both the father and the mother.

Isn't that basically my proposal really?

I thought yours worked on some kind of hidden, random marriage name?

GoblinCookie's convention wasn't random, it was one name per ancestor, arranged in a strict order. But that itself is very different from what Thundercraft mentioned, which is essentially each dwarf carrying two lineage names: One the same as (one of) their father's, and the other the same as (one of) their mother's.

It was one name per ancestral couple, not ancestor.  That is why they are similar, my system works in a similar way but it uses half the names that Thundercraft's would use, since it is one name per ancestral couple rather than one name per individual ancestor.

[SixOfSpades]

GoblinCookie's convention wasn't random, it was one name per ancestor, arranged in a strict order.

It was one name per ancestral couple, not ancestor.

Actually, no, you had one name per ancestor. "Melbildatan" is two name elements; whether or not there's a space between them is irrelevant.

That is why they are similar, my system works in a similar way but it uses half the names that Thundercraft's would use . . .

I say they're very much alike in that you try to have everybody "everything" . . .

As Thundercraft didn't give any specifics, I can't speak as to what his actual plan was, but the examples he cited were quite short, far shorter than GoblinCookie's convention. If I were to guess what precisely Thundercraft was suggesting, I'd say it would look something like this:
1[Gl] 2[S<♂¹2>]3[S<♀¹3>]
Element 1 = Given type, limited style.
Element 2 = Surname type, pointing at the male (♂) parent's (¹) second (2) name element.
Element 3 = Surname type, pointing at the female (♀) parent's (¹) third (3) name element.
So each dwarf carries two lineage names; males will pass down their second (assuming they have kids) and females will likewise pass on their third. There should probably also be a 4th name element as well, ideally based on one of the parents' first names, to identify siblings.

The convention of having two lineage names adds another wrinkle to the concept of dwarves changing their family names, raising the possibility of a dwarf changing one name but deciding to keep the other, or even deciding to change both.

[Thundercraft]

Isn't that basically my proposal really?

I thought yours worked on some kind of hidden, random marriage name?

GoblinCookie's convention wasn't random, it was one name per ancestor, arranged in a strict order...

It was one name per ancestral couple, not ancestor...

In hindsight, I can see how my proposal may have been a bit hard to follow, especially since I was not explicit about what I wanted. (It was more like offering a few suggestions.) Long-winded posts, like mine, and complex proposals can be hard to follow, too.

I was not clear on GoblinCookie's proposal, myself. But I could not manage to read through all 9 pages of this topic. I wanted to... I started to read through posts, going backwards. But I gave up after reading several pages of mostly bickering and off-topic comments. (My attention span isn't what it used to be.)

I say they're very much alike in that you try to have everybody "everything" eleminating the chance to implement more cultural identity and lore.

My proposal, at least, is based on real-world naming conventions. Double-barrelled surnames may seem uncommon, but they do exist as an inherent part of different cultures from around the world. That is, they're part of the identity of the cultures of British, Spanish, Portuguese, Hispanic American, German, Scandinavian, Polish, Russian and Turkish traditions. Though, while similar, they're not all alike. Some don't use hyphens ("-"), for example.

Using naming conventions to simulate greater cultural variety would require having more than one naming system used for different cultures - i.e., potentially different systems for dwarves, elves, humans, etc. However, that would require more work for Toady. More than two or three different naming conventions for DF seems excessive. I think most players would agree that there are higher priorities. Some of us, at least, find that the current surname naming convention for dwarves leaves a lot to be desired and I think nearly anything would be better than what we currently have.

That said, it should not be too difficult to rearrange the order of names for, say, elves (for example). Perhaps elves should have their surname(s) listed first, followed by their given name, like the Japanese do? Or, would this tradition make more sense for dwarves?

Because which of the lastnames have been chosen is barely indcative if you don't know the parents or the naming conventions. But if we keep it to allways 3 strings (firstname familynameA+B) I can live with it.

Making a name convention always stick to a 3 string, Firstname + (Familyname A) + (Familyname B) is fine by me. It is, essentially, the basis with what I was going for with my proposal.

I'm not picky, so long as the convention makes it much easier to keep track of lineages. I want to be able to tell who is related to who with just a glance, at least within a single family and between cousins, aunts and uncles. But making it easy to trace lineages back over many generations would be much better, in my book.

Granted, if the surname of one or both parents is unknown, that could cause complications. If one parent is unknown, the child could inherit the surname of the known parent. If the surname of both parents are unknown, that would be a good excuse to create a random new name. Alternatively, the child could be assigned a last name later in life based on profession or something he or she likes (blacksmith or cheese, for example).

...And giggle at those odd case that might appear to indicate circular linearity if the strings and circumstances fit. We could have nice variations of recurring names tough to spice it up.

I would welcome some variation of recurring names... so long as the variations do no blurr the name so much as to make following lineages difficult.

It was one name per ancestral couple, not ancestor.  That is why they are similar, my system works in a similar way but it uses half the names that Thundercraft's would use, since it is one name per ancestral couple rather than one name per individual ancestor.

From what I've read, GoblinCookie's proposal sounds good to me. I could definitely see myself supporting it, so long as it's not deemed too complex for the average player or difficult for Toady to implement.

[SixOfSpades]

. . . I could not manage to read through all 9 pages of this topic.

And I don't think anyone blames you. Personally I'd be okay with this thread dying, as inherited names is one of those ideas that always comes back in new threads. But at least this one is back on topic (for now?).

However, I do suggest you take a peek at Page 5, I've collected some examples of possible naming conventions there (along with what they might imply about the societies that use them), and I'll add your proposal to the list momentarily.

Using naming conventions to simulate greater cultural variety would require having more than one naming system used for different cultures - i.e., potentially different systems for dwarves, elves, humans, etc. However, that would require more work for Toady. More than two or three different naming conventions for DF seems excessive.

I think most users are in disagreement with you there--from what I've seen, a lot of people want to see a lot more variety in dwarf (and human, elf, etc.,) societies: Procedurally randomized foods, styles of dress, marriage laws, social hierarchy, religious ceremonies, music and entertainment, standards of ethical behavior, what have you--and names would be part of that. The trick, for Toady, is coding a name-convention writer, and telling it what types of names best reflect certain societal values.

Perhaps elves should have their surname(s) listed first, followed by their given name, like the Japanese do? Or, would this tradition make more sense for dwarves?

Speaking of societal values, a surname-first setup would imply that the culture places more emphasis on the reputation of the family as a whole, rather than the deeds of an individual.

If one parent is unknown, the child could inherit the surname of the known parent.

The problem of bastard and foundling children has come up earlier in this thread, and as you say, it can be quite a tricky issue. I have to say, the bastard inheriting both surnames from the known parent is the most concise solution we've seen yet, and a strong argument for double surnames.

From what I've read, GoblinCookie's proposal sounds good to me. I could definitely see myself supporting it, so long as it's not deemed too complex for the average player or difficult for Toady to implement.

See Page 5 of this thread, halfway down the page. It's listed there.

[dragdeler]

I'd like to see them all, mothername, fathername, compoundname; as "legobricks" that are attributed to each race via entity default raw leaving the possibility to define multiple. And I'd like them to be no longer than 3 strings (including firstname).

[Shazbot]

So long as one lego brick I can choose is "father's last name", I'm set.

[JezaGaia]

I've mostly read all pages but I'll admit it was not in much detail so forgive me if I state something already said.

I came to this thread because being able to know how my dwarves are related is important to me but I also would be very interested in being able to know of their family line without having to spend hours in legends and having family based last names is how we do it in real life so it seemed logical to use the same in DF.

However from what I read I understand hos it wouldn't work very well having too many duplicates for one and also too few last names from the worldgen and as such very few generations removed we would have only a couple last names remaining defeating the purpose of having them inn the first place.

So I would like to add my vote to these two ideas I picked in the previous pages : 

1-Having a clerck that keeps track of lineage and being able to check it on a specific screen in fortress mode. If it was also added to legends it would be great of course but the point is being able to see it by staying in fortress mode.
Ideally you would have a way to know if a dwarf in said lineage is alive or dead or undead (if it's known) but also his or her actual location (if ti's known).

2- Having some kind of lastname convention found that prevents having only very few of them still alive after a couple of generations.
Being part Latin American and part Spanish my vote goes to Double-barrelled surnames like described below

At worldgen each dwarf gets Firstname Lastname at random just like it's already done.
Say Urist1 A and Urist2 B marry , they become Urist1 A and Urist2 B of A (short for spouse of A). When they have kids they'll be LittleUrist A B
If you go 1 more generation LittleUrist A B marries OtherUrist C D and they become LittleUrist  A B and OtherUrist C of A and their kids will be AnotherUrist A C and so on and so forth.


Whose last name is predominant in real life is of course the father's but in DF it could be  chosen on the following criteria in order :

-One is noble and not the other, noble takes precedence.
-Both are nobles then the highest rank is chosen
-Same rank (nobles or not) then the highest family prestige (will elaborate further down)
-Same rank (nobles or not) and same prestige  : does one care about lineage more than the other. OF course that implies a new trait for dwarves regarding lineage.
-Lastly if no factor can be determined, at random.


Prestige : it could be a weight attached to every lastname that would be increased or decreased every time something significant happens to someone wearing it.

Adding points in increasing order when :

Creating mastercrafts
Being grandmaster in a skill
Being a Noble the higher the rank the more points
Writing a book
Creating an artifact (books excluded)
Defeating ennemies , a tiny bonus for killing a giant bat , bigger if said bat has a name and then in order named ennemies during raids/sieges, megabeasts (the more famous the more points), forgotten beasts (the more famous the more points), demons
Any other idea welcome

Removing points in increasing order when

punished in the justice system for minor crimes (brawls, vandalims etc), the bigger the crime/punishment the more points removed
Killing a pet
Killing a civilian
Killing a noble to usurp a lawfully given title
Being cursed
Becoming a necromancer
Any other idea welcome

Based on prestige only in my naming convention examples A would have more prestige than B at the time of the marriage and same with C having more than D. It may happen than by the time AB and CD marry B or D have become way more prestigious that wouldn't be taken into consideration as it's only A and C that will be passed on to the progeny as such it's the "primary" lastname that should get the prestige increase or decrease as it's the one that will be propagated.

So say AB does something grand  A will get a bonus but if BA is the one doing the deed it's B that is impacted.


Hope this was not too convoluted and that I manged to explain it clearly. It's not always easy as English is not my first language (or even the second :p  )