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[George_Chickens]

I don't get the whole "DF shouldn't be mainstream" argument. DF is mainstream, as far as free roguelikes go. To say that it isn't is like saying "I only listen to underground music like KISS and the Rolling Stones". Something being not popular with the mainstream audience at this point in time, does not mean it has not had massive mainstream recognition. DF, after all, is the only roguelike in the Museum of Modern Art, and one of few that gets constant recognition on mainstream video gaming news sites.

That being said, I think the lack of influx of new, creative blood to the forums is quite worrying. There are still vibrant communities outside of Bay12 (a few small imageboard communities and active threads on practically every forum which may be interested), but the liveliness of the forums seems to have greatly slowed down in the past eight years.

[Ghills]

Dorf Fort's problem isn't lack of visibility, it's lack of retention. It's difficult to learn and difficult to stick with. I think there are things to be done about that without 'dumbing down the game' (whatever the fuck that means), mostly in terms of interface, optimization and documentation. Ultimately though, the technical side of the game is still a one man project, so it is what it is.

That said, I'd love to see the community as active as it was back in the day, sans the shitty wolf memes.

I think that was a combination of things. Part of it was right time, right place stuff like having that aura of being elite and unknown. That helped draw some people in in a way we can't replicate. Now everyone knows about DF, and everyone also 'knows' that it's quite difficult. Different perception.

But also part of it was good, detailed, newbie tutorials.  I don't see the same kind of introductory, here's how to play series for the new versions, and that's really offputting for new players.  If given a choice between using an old, outdated tutorial and diving headfirst into something complex and confusing, most people find something else to do.  Maybe someone is doing this still, and we need to signal boost. But I haven't seen it.

[thvaz]

What I think is happening:

1) People moved out to other media (old forum boards like this don't have the same appeal as 10 years ago)

2) Dwarf Fortress isn't novelty anymore. Most knowledgeable PC gamer will have heard of DF by now. Rock Paper Shotgun and PC Gamer constantly has articles about DF releases or development. DF-like is almost considered a genre by now.

Donations remain steady, so the number of people interested in DF is somewhat constant. Toady said he isn't worried yet, but he understands the concerns.

[PlumpHelmetMan]

If you ask me, there's also a decent chance that the upcoming features of this release cycle coupled with the start of mythgen development will be enough to attract some new players (or if not, at least keep the existing ones interested enough to continue supporting development over the foreseeable future).

[PatrikLundell]

Given the slow pace of development, it's entirely reasonable that people drop out and check back in a year or two, and it seems to be happening every so often (there's typically at least one active thread of the "I'm back after a number of years: what's changed?" type at any one time (possibly enough of those that somebody who actually know the history might want to create a "This is what's happened in DF since way back (Check here first for returning players)" pinned post).

The Big Wait is going to be a bit of a challenge interest wise. I would advice Toady to keep a copy of the last release before the Big Wait on a USB or similar (e.g. an extra one in addition to the current backup system) so that crash bugs can be fixed in the "old" version (if that had been done, the weapon trap/missile break crash bug could [and should] have been fixed with an emergency release after the 0.43.X arc).

The "DF is extremely hard and has an insane learning curve" meme is probably hurting DF, and it would probably be better for DF if those spreading it would stop doing so. In my view DF has a large number of systems, which means there's a lot to learn (with much of it optional), but it isn't particularly hard as such. The UI is inconsistent and somewhat confusing, but, again, not that hard.

Myth gen may attract new players, but I doubt anything in the current arc will attract new players in themselves: it's not making big enough waves. However, new/improved features may attract cyclic players back, retain the interest of current players for longer, and may help to hook new players who check DF out anyway (if failing to hook them, it may still help planting a seed for returning later).

[scourge728]

Now most fan content produced is done by the same like 20 old vanguards who have been doing it for 10 years or more.

I object to this.

The "DF is extremely hard and has an insane learning curve" meme is probably hurting DF, and it would probably be better for DF if those spreading it would stop doing so. In my view DF has a large number of systems, which means there's a lot to learn (with much of it optional), but it isn't particularly hard as such. The UI is inconsistent and somewhat confusing, but, again, not that hard.

1. The meme IS probably doing such, but it's such a good one, and it makes me feel better about myself as a gamer
2. I've never understood the "U.I is difficult to understand" thing, I never really had a problem, then again, I had wiki pages open at the time...

[PlumpHelmetMan]

I can see how the UI would be difficult for new players without consulting the wiki, but considering I already knew about the wiki before I even started playing the game I was able to get the hang of it within fifteen minutes.

Isn't the current UI a placeholder for a better one that Toady plans to implement at some point anyway?

[Pvt. Pirate]

Now most fan content produced is done by the same like 20 old vanguards who have been doing it for 10 years or more.

I object to this.

The "DF is extremely hard and has an insane learning curve" meme is probably hurting DF, and it would probably be better for DF if those spreading it would stop doing so. In my view DF has a large number of systems, which means there's a lot to learn (with much of it optional), but it isn't particularly hard as such. The UI is inconsistent and somewhat confusing, but, again, not that hard.

1. The meme IS probably doing such, but it's such a good one, and it makes me feel better about myself as a gamer
2. I've never understood the "U.I is difficult to understand" thing, I never really had a problem, then again, I had wiki pages open at the time...

Well, it actually could use some sort of streamlining, yet this shouldn't mean cutting off complexety of the gameworld at all.
to me streamlining means rearranging menus, topics etc. making things more accessible and logical. eg. easier to learn.
why are buckets, barrels and bins furniture when it comes to stockpiles, but you can't actually put them as if they were furniture?!
why do some kind of constructions react to heat and others don't? (wooden walls for magma pipe are OK!!! while a wooden drawbridge will burn)
why can i build a wall upon natural  stone ground (has floor!) but i can't upon constructed floor?!
why can i put priorities only to designations and not even to all of them. why can't i put a lvl1 priority to dumping out any shit from my soon to be hospital? or the construction of a bridge?
why are items incapable of each on its own being accessed to be hauled once they are within a bin?!

[Urist McVoyager]

Those are all bugs, placeholders, and incomplete features, I'd say. They'll get fixed up when Toady aims at them. We just have to wait.

[GoblinCookie]

I can see how the UI would be difficult for new players without consulting the wiki, but considering I already knew about the wiki before I even started playing the game I was able to get the hang of it within fifteen minutes.

Isn't the current UI a placeholder for a better one that Toady plans to implement at some point anyway?

That is kind of the thing, the devs are rather dependant upon the unpaid labour of their fans as well as their donations.  Pretty much all of the value of the game is from these 'hidden helpers' like the people who maintain the wiki.  They are able to make ends meet because the game is valuable enough that people will donate to support Toady One as the lone creator, except that they aren't really working alone are they?

[Vivalas]

I'd probably buy merchandise if any existed, but I'm pretty sure Toady has said before that he didn't want to deal with managing it.  Whatever that ends up meaning.

In a recent interview, he said that he viewed working on DF as just what he does for fun, but everything else, like administrating this forum, felt like work.  I imagine setting up and dealing with merchandise would be in that bucket for him, so I don't really blame him for not pursuing it.

I mean yeah but he could probably just hire somebody to set up merchendising and stuff like that for him, a turnkey sorta deal where he doesnt have to worry about it. He just desrves so much more than 7000 bucks a month.. thats like... split betwene him and his brother l just over 3,000 each which is only about double canadian minimum wage.
With how amazing this game is he deserves to be making enough money to hire programmers and merchendise deals and have a whole team working for him...
But... I have to hand it to him, Toady is not greedy.. He is content having just enough money to live a very comfortable life and work on his passion project. He never over reaches or distracts from that, which is admirable.

Old post, but $7000 a month is actually pretty nice, at least in USD, for one person. That's a lot more than people with "real jobs" have. Not saying what he does isn't a real job-- it basically is given the amount of money he earns and the amazing game he makes.

I mean, that's a lot more than a lot of people make, at least in the US.

[KittyTac]

Toady probably does not like merchandising/making people pay for DF for the same reason he does not hire programmers: personal ethics.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I'd probably buy merchandise if any existed, but I'm pretty sure Toady has said before that he didn't want to deal with managing it.  Whatever that ends up meaning.

In a recent interview, he said that he viewed working on DF as just what he does for fun, but everything else, like administrating this forum, felt like work.  I imagine setting up and dealing with merchandise would be in that bucket for him, so I don't really blame him for not pursuing it.

I mean yeah but he could probably just hire somebody to set up merchendising and stuff like that for him, a turnkey sorta deal where he doesnt have to worry about it. He just desrves so much more than 7000 bucks a month.. thats like... split betwene him and his brother l just over 3,000 each which is only about double canadian minimum wage.
With how amazing this game is he deserves to be making enough money to hire programmers and merchendise deals and have a whole team working for him...
But... I have to hand it to him, Toady is not greedy.. He is content having just enough money to live a very comfortable life and work on his passion project. He never over reaches or distracts from that, which is admirable.

Old post, but $7000 a month is actually pretty nice, at least in USD, for one person. That's a lot more than people with "real jobs" have. Not saying what he does isn't a real job-- it basically is given the amount of money he earns and the amazing game he makes.

I mean, that's a lot more than a lot of people make, at least in the US.

Except that he's two people. Now, perhaps Threetoe works for free, I have no idea, but every interview and talk Toady gives he always emphasises the "we" part of Bay12Games.

[PatrikLundell]

Toady probably does not like merchandising/making people pay for DF for the same reason he does not hire programmers: personal ethics.

A large part of the merchandise and no programmers stance isn't really ethics, but preferences: it requires a lot of administration and management that is both boring "real work" and takes time away from actually working on DF. Trying to go that route would probably kill DF within 5 years because it would gradually kill Toady's passion.

[hanni79]

If he ever decided to sell merchandise -

I hope it's ASCII character Plushies 

I want a capital D