Follow up to my question about home towns then:
Do all party members have to come from the same civ, or do we get complete control over their origins? If that's possible, do they react well to being at war with each other?
Nahere:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004271#msg8004271Shonai_Dweller (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=108160Yeah, it doesn't restrict down the choices at all. My understanding is that they get along (in some minimal sense) based on the shared 'commander' variable, where their current tie to the player's character squashes other problems as long as it lasts.
Regarding the fail-safe checks for the dice, I take it there is also a check in place to ensure a fail roll doesn't result in the adventurer's death because they turn into a fish and air-drown? ;p
On a more serious note, is the time limit for summoned creatures a hardcoded part of the interaction or will that be definable?
Death Dragon:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004710#msg8004710ZM5 (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004812#msg8004812Yeah, if I recollect, you can set the summon timer, including to no timer. And I remembered the fish case when I was writing the divination transform, ha ha ha. But there are probably some odd ones still.
1. Regarding new capturing mechanics, if it makes the cut, are you aiming for it to be broad enough so you can capture other creatures, like wildlife or beast such as dragons? What about titans and megabeasts? If yes how would you handle gigantic beasts or megabeasts such as Bronze Colossi?
2. Will the new capturing mechanics and interrogation system spell an end for the indestructible chains/cages that current exist? Will there be prison breaks with the interrogation part of this update or is that far ahead?
3. Will creatures with magical powers (demons, necromancers) use their powers to further their plots? The classic here would be doing a deal with the devil in exchange for something. But a necromancer could raise an intelligent dead to manipulate/infiltrate somewhere.
1. I do not yet know. Things like cages are notoriously goofy, so once an item like a rope is involved, we'd have to work for it to not also be deeply silly. But we're not sure yet if it'll involve items at all or just have to be something quick and simple to satisfy our current need (which would mean something more like a modification of the yield mechanic + the new pet leading stuff, etc.)
2. Dunno about fort stuff yet. Significant modifications to cages is too much to bite off now, but there's some room for a bit, especially as it relates to plots against the fort.
3. One of the necromancer plots is called 'undead animator world conquest' in the code, or something like that, and they use the proper powers there obviously. But generally, there's not a lot else to work with. The necromancers do use their intelligent undead and ghostly agents throughout there plots, and demons do that too when they have access to such powers.
With the changes to evil regions, is it now easier to tell if an evil region is a reanimator region or can that still only be found out by making a fort and checking if your butchering refuse comes back to life?
Does <quote from last Fotf> mean you can get a permanent (?) weapon or pet as a reward from the divination dice rolls, or did you mean you can get a blessing that will make your weapon more effective in combat?
Like in the embark interface? I haven't changed that, though you'll be able to tell sometimes just by seeing a tower at the center of the region now that they are dynamic.
Permanent stuff was actually easier to do than item enchantments (which I haven't revisited yet), but basic quality also.
Is there currently any sort of limitation in place for what percentage of the population necromancers/demons will take to experiment on? I could see quite a few settlements getting pretty weird pretty quickly if the bad guy is just allowed to transform everyone (which would be fun, but might also take away from immersion).
The people are all executed and turned into zombies otherwise, so they just go for it. Because they have zombies, living creatures simply cannot be tolerated, so the humans etc. all have to be affected in some way. To keep the exposition manageable currently (as we've said before, we're trying to ease into these procedural creatures from the edges), an individual necromancer sticks with one of each kind once they have a successful experiment (that is humanoid, small quad+, large quad+, giant.) Gives it kind of an Urukhai=Saruman feel. We'll slowly branch out from there.
Are the experiment/giant amalgamation type creatures bright red Ńs, the color reserved for "constructed creatures" as stated in that old night creature DF talk? Are intelligent undead bright cyan Ńs?
Intelligent undead are bright cyan, yeah, and yeah, the experiments, despite not being exactly Frankensteinesque, were close enough that we went with the bright red N for them. We still want to do the Frankenstein's-monster-types, but it is harder.
With the adventurers as villains content, and the new actions necromancers and demons (with the death sphere I presume) can do in creating experimental creatures and undead types, could player necromancers do the same things when it comes time for adventure mode villainy?
Are player necromancers going to be able to do the corrupting of citizens and other such experiments on things?
Will the player be able to perform the twisted necromancer experiments, or is it worldgen only?
Death Dragon:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004710#msg8004710Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8017739#msg8017739Yeah, as suggested in the replies, it's a bit out of scope. It isn't an 'interaction' in the way the other powers are, because it's presumably occurring through some process that has additional inputs over time, etc. We'll be sorting these more complicated bits out with the magic stuff.
Do you know if the updated menus of the Steam release will include a revamp of the labor interface? Or will the Steam menus simply look prettier, but function the same?
You mentioned earlier that stress & memory fixes will most likely happen before The Big Wait, but can you say if you'll be able to look at those before Steam release?
Almost certainly. The current discussion is the balance between automatic labor style, spreadsheet style and other approaches. As we've said before, we don't want the spreadsheets to dominate the game, but automatic labor choices aren't precise enough for some people. Just doing everything is tempting, of course, but we'll only have so much time to work with. So we'll see.
It'd probably be prudent to take another crack at stress before Steam, yeah, and we'll probably have to keep working on it. It wouldn't surprise me if tweaks there end up being one of the things that happens *during* the Big Wait, with what we hope to be the new branches etc., since stress/happiness/etc. are so finicky and hard to tune.
Are these summonable "larger, nightmarish beings" basically the typical, random hell dwelling demons, or are they special in some specific way?
I haven't done anything super new here, but they do occupy a size space in between humanoids and gigantic FB/demon types, which we've hardly explored at all up to this point. The large experiment quads also are sized in this way.
1. Some demons know and intone the names of all things. Do they automatically know the names of all ghosts? Can they identify secret agents any better than average?
2. Is a dead adventurer raised as an intelligent undead after game over playable again? What if someone other than another of your adventurers is the one that raised them? Can they potentially be ghosts, and could you play them as ghosts?
3. What do ghosts do mechanically when it comes to moving from place to place? Are they flying? Do they pass through walls like a late game Larn character? Do the different kinds of ghosts that appear in fort mode now affect the abilities these new ghosts have? Does that mean some can pick up items, and how will their movement effect such a thing?
4. What do summoned beings know if they're intelligent? Are they blank arena mode style vessels? If you summon a mountable animal, can you ride it? If you summon a creature that knows and intones the names of all things can it banish ghosts?
5. With proc gen creatures finally roaming the world at smaller-than-titanic sizes, is there going to be any place in game to see the creature size number? Even picking animal people adventurers is a challenge right now. If I'm a bluejay person coming across a bright green N, which started out as a kea, but is small overall I've already got a pretty difficult time making a threat assessment even before I even know if its size has changed in the transformation.
6. Most importantly, can you pet the large nightmarish beings, and once you get to having feelings about being pet, what are they gonna think about that?
DG:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004795#msg8004795Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004813#msg80048131. Ha ha, flavor text of all kinds always comes back to haunt the living. Sphere-vault critters are even worse that way. Nothing yet.
2. I'm really not sure - the flags are all there, and they aren't removed as far as I know, so theoretically they'd be playable, the intelligent undead ones, barring something I missed. Ghosts have the additional uncertainty of being... more dead. More of the death variables are left intact for them (from ghosts in fort mode), so they have a higher chance of not being playable if old advs, I think.
3. They are completely removed from the path-finding checks - liquids, walls, air, whatever. They haven't been connected power/habits-wise to the old ghosts, since they are kind of different, but I can see that gap being bridged by the metaphysics stuff from mythgen. I do not recall how poltergeists currently work when picking up items in fort mode... do they items go through walls or does it change their path model? Don't remember.
4. They don't know anything. It is odd. I haven't tested the summoned mount case, and it depends on a few variables, so it'd need to be checked.
5. I think the comments have more or less addressed this; we'd like to use a different solution, many are available, and they all have issues. I'm not sure when we'll try to address it, but as noted, the addition of these sorts of creatures places another thumb on the scale, toward doing something about it at some point.
6. ... hmm... maybe not. I don't think a bogeyman can be pet, which is their closest cousin, because they are intelligent.
You mentioned that the subjects of magical experiments could join populations. Through this, is it possible to introduce non-procedurally generated races into the world? Say I make Race X, and make an interaction so that a wizard type will focus on creating Race X in large numbers (or at least just create them in general), with the intent of seeding the world with this artificial race. Would that all work smoothly? Also, as of now there is a way to have non-necromancer wizards live in towns. By not giving them a "rais undead" flag, they'll hang out in civilizations and even end up ruling them. Could that also have an impact on the spread of Race X?
Along those lines: Could a necromancer hide in plain sight in a civ by only raising intelligent undead minions? If the humans or whatever can't recognize rotting flesh or gaping wounds in a person running around a necromancer with intelligent undead minions would look more like an organized crime ring, gang, or if they are clever enough a performance troup, guild, or cult.
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8004791#msg8004791Yeah, Shonai_Dweller is correct about the tags. And generally, experimentation doesn't currently work through an interaction with an adjustable creature token the way other powers might work, since it isn't used the same way. The experimentation is a relatively complex pathway, as with FBs and other proc critters, so we'll have to sort out additional syntax later.
Experimenters don't currently use their own civilians, just conquests.
The necros can't hide in plain site forever because they don't age, and that makes people suspicious, but yeah, the intelligent undead don't yet make people suspicious (which is odd not just because of the rotting, but because they, like, should be recognizable to others that know them before they died... and they are... but those people don't care, ha ha ha. So much to do, later.)
Will we see our lands transformed into evil lands if an evil force installs itself near our fortress ? Will this process work after worldgen ?
Due to how the local populations are instanced from the regional ones, I suspect you won't necessarily see everything (given that I haven't started fort mode work yet!) I expect the general process to continue, but certain of those layered parts of it might not be easy to get working right away, though the animals and grasses seem doable.
How many souls do the amalgamated giants have? Do the amalgamations contain all the souls of the victims used, or are they considered to have died?
Right now it smushes a bunch of non-historical critters to a single historical critter, so the soul problem can be dodged. I'm sure it'll be more interesting when we start to fully embrace the multiple soul infrastructure that has been in place for like a decade but never used.
Will magical experiments have different traits depending on what creatures they were made from? For example, a creature made from elfs being at peace with wildlife.
EDIT: A better example would be a creature made from dwarves needing alcohol.
EternalCaveDragon:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005095#msg8005095Haven't done anything like that yet! The creature generator does understand the input creature (at least on the first humanoid, before it starts defaulting to the same result to save memory), but doesn't use it beyond counting limbs and stuff to see if the output should be humanoid/quadruped/etc. and also the basic size.
Are aquatic megabeasts planned for some point? I imagine they are an addition for when boats happen, but it would be cool to have Kraken or monstrous whales drag themselves out of the sea to attack a coastal fort, or lurking in the shallows to ambush.
PlumpHelmetMan:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005154#msg8005154Yeah, we probably won't seem them until then, side from the beaching zombie whales or whatever was known to happen on rare occasion, at least in the past.
Are dwarves fearful of these magical experiments/roughly average to the effect of fighting the undead, or will they cut them down with as much regard to their attitude to battle as wildlife or other sentients?
Experiment doesn't infer that they're actually un-alive, just possibly dorf-centipeded to send alcohol into one dwarf's stomachs when they inexplicably somehow consume a flagon or barrel of booze, then through multiple bodies, then a tantrum throwing sober dwarf sown in there at the end somewhere unable to drink the consumed alcohol who punches the dwarf head at the top with whatever control they have of one arm of the body.
Erm less satirically and more practically they might just get ressurected by a necro or arrive already undead with them if i understand correctly without any further elaboration.
Can 'magical experiments' be revived by necromancer zombie summoning? That sounds messy potentially to have a amalgamated monster of many limbs split off into arm-zombies. Also quite !!fun!!
Fear: It doesn't have an effect now. With the number of critters out there, I'm not even sure what the proper course of action is without adding a whole new system for exposure tracking and so forth.
My understanding is that dead experiments can be animated, based on the tags. The experiments don't kill the villagers at the time.
With the villain update, if a goblin from a goblin civ obtains the title of king over a human or dwarven civ through a coup and intrigue, will that civ then start to act more similarly to a goblin one because of the goblin king's values, which originate from a goblin civ? For example, will a human/dwarven civ that is ruled by a goblin from a goblin civ be more likely to declare wars?
Do war declarations, etc depend on the values of the actual ruler or does diplomacy right now depend on the civ's average values instead?
FantasticDorf:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005547#msg8005547The personality and values of the ruler have a strong influence on decision-making, especially in warfare. But yeah, the ruler's disposition doesn't spread outward to future rulers or flip the actual civ value meters for all time, unless value books are written and placed in libraries, and those are generally made by others.
Actually, facetious as my earlier comment about boats was, given that wagons are considered to be creatures, is it actually possible for the procedural body-horror abominations to incorporate wagons?
FantasticDorf:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8005547#msg8005547Ha ha, we really haven't gotten to anything that complicated yet. The centaur problem has not yet been attempted.
Can the ghosts necromancers raise attack people like the murderous ghosts that sometimes appear in forts? Can you physically fight a ghost?
When a fort in worldgen breaches the underworld and falls to demons, do all the demons stay in their new home or is there a chance that some may choose to set out and work on their own schemes?
FantasticDorf:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8006084#msg8006084Ha ha, no, we were kind and did not give ghostly agents the instadeath powers. Because indeed, you cannot physically fight them - our intent was to make them actually different from the others. You need to use their identities to control/banish them. This will likely change as we get more stuff in later, but we wanted to toy around with it now.
Assuming they don't die in the initial breach attack, they basically become a full demon-led goblin civ w/ some extra demons, and they interact with the world outside just as other gobs do, spreading throughout.
Have you seen the "Dwaven Language Codifier" here ? And if yes, what are your thoughts about it ?
(http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.0)
Yeah, I've seen it! I think it's a cool project.
Since some of the analysis applies to all the languages (since they are underspecified but have a lot of similar characteristics), it's important to note that we're going to end up having to blow a lot of stuff up with procgen, if we can get it to work. Though I've been wanting to do that for years and haven't had time. And as with the myth stuff vs. the creature types etc., I really don't know precisely what 'default' is going to mean, or what sorts of vanilla language notions will remain intact. Presumably, with the editor examples etc., there might even be a more and more fixed version of things.
Will you add Sand to the embark indicators? Dfhack has it, and you already indicate dirt and clay presence.
PatrikLundell:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8006878#msg8006878Yeah, it's reasonable, but it's better to suggest it where I won't forget, for the next time I add a bunch of indicators.
Now that monasteries have been added as separate structures from temples, is it safe to assume that "monastery" has been taken out of the procgen pool for temple names?
Will we be able to designate monasteries in fortress mode?
Do you plan to change the way dead units are handled, so they don't clog up the list (there's an immigration issue there too)?
Clarification: I am referring to Nonsignificant creatures clogging up the dead units list, i.e. having to scroll past all those puppies :-(.
Eschar:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008096#msg8008096Yeah, there were a few word tweaks like that, though it's mostly the same.
I haven't gotten to fort mode yet - how many of the side systems make it in is an open question.
I don't have a specific plan for the unit list aside from combining all the notes that have come up in suggestions.
Do existing changes also include the animated furniture? Can you as a necromancer, say, stitch new frankentrocities around a schist cabinet?
When you say you can create new monsters from amalgamating other creatures as a necromancer, can we do that in adventure mode and can we "invent" new creatures or are those just generated from the start?
I look forward to having a ball of various arms rampaging around a castle. Not so much one rampaging around my lever room.
Will the divination games be generated at the beginning of the world, or could new ones appear over time?
None of the animated items or items glued to critters yet. That'll take a body rewrite, which I've avoided thus far.
The generation of experiments does occur on the fly, but we don't have an interface for it. The game becomes slowly more interesting, but there's always more interesting stuff around the corners we don't quite reach from release to release.
The divination practices are linked to both the gods and religions, so it'd require a new religion to created, and then also a new shrine. New cities can be founded and stuff, so new shrines seem possible, but I don't recall if prophets are still actively engaged in forming religions post w.g. Seems like maybe we still need that part.
Have you considered splitting the Myth & Magic Big Wait into two Large Waits with a Systems Rewrite release in the middle? It seems to me that the systems rewrites that are going to break save compatibility really is a prerequisite for the actual Myth & Magic stuff, but from the exterior it looks like you'd have to restore the current functionality using the redesigned map (etc.) as a starting point regardless, and it doesn't seem that much of that would have to be torn up again for the magic stuff. Doing it in two steps has the advantages of play testing (i.e. bug finding), and reducing a very uncomfortably long period of no releases into two merely quite uncomfortable ones.
I know this is very much a suggestion, but I'm quite interested in hearing the reasoning behind the decision, as I'm sure you've considered the various options.
Shonai_Dweller:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008308#msg8008308therahedwig:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008344#msg8008344PatrikLundell (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008419#msg8008419DG:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008440#msg8008440PatrikLundell (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008601#msg8008601AliceRed:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008683#msg8008683PatrikLundell (op):
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg8008800#msg8008800Sure, we've thought about it a lot. It mostly boils down to us never having absorbed the pain of a really large refactor-only release, and not really wanting to do that. One wait with stuff seems better than a somewhat smaller (but still very long) wait with literally no stuff. One I can explain, the other I can't easily. I mean, it might not be a problem, but this is our own form of risk aversion, I guess. But I dunno, since there's a lot of moving parts.
Take, say, temporary morphing faerie-land border zones. That needs to be supported in the map rewrite if we're ever going to have them. I need a test case to test it, or to make the time feel worth it. So, faerie-land, in some simple way. All of these simple cases taken together seem to encompass what we're thinking of as the first myth/magic release. Or else there's just sort of a large swath of untested map code with no visible benefit or mode of testing.
Author
Topic: Future of the Fortress (Read 3138188 times)