Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Military Training !!Science!!  (Read 6689 times)

Sanctume

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2018, 01:10:40 pm »

DF Tools is only up to v 43.05, so no go on testing v44.05 yet. 

I am not sure if dfhack 44.05 has:
- Embark starting dwarf count to 19 (to avoid moods). 
- I do not know yet how to change individual dwarf stats and attributes using gui/gm-editor (yet).

Setting up the test subjects is one of the key to getting a baseline, so I'm ok with not using dfhack, then retain a save prior to testing.  So setting up is a separate issue.

Now back to Military Training Science. 
What are the objectives of the testing? 

The purpose of these experiments is to test the efficacy of using a veteran soldier to train new recruits vs just throwing new recruits in a squad by themselves to spar.

The game version used for these experiments is 43.05.

Or rather, what objectives I want to see.
Given "void dwarfs" starting dwarfs, their initial skills can be controlled using 10 skill points upgrades and embark points.
And it "seems" like sparring increases the rate of skill gains.

What skill levels are needed to have recruits start sparring? 

In my small test.
I start with a "teacher" (Wrestler+5, Teacher+2), and put 5 other recruits. 
Would it be better to give the recruits with 0 skills; then see what skills they learn once to the point when the individual participates in sparring?

Are there other skills that "teacher" can start with to improve the progress of the class?  Teacher+5 instead?  Maybe Organizer+3? 
See, having to change the initial embark skills does take part in the embark setup for my testing.

In my small test observation, the squad does "individual drills" and eventually has "start demonstrations".
Should I try to change the schedule from the default 1x "train minimum 10" to 5x orders of "train minimum 2"?

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Xyon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2018, 07:53:19 am »

It would be interesting to see if the skills the 'teacher' has influence the skill gain of the other dwarfs in the squad.  A dwarf high in armor use and teaching skill might be the best option for getting dwarfs to use heavy armor without being slowed down.
Logged

Sanctume

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2018, 10:06:31 am »

It would be interesting to see if the skills the 'teacher' has influence the skill gain of the other dwarfs in the squad.  A dwarf high in armor use and teaching skill might be the best option for getting dwarfs to use heavy armor without being slowed down.

Yeah, I'm interested in this too, if a teacher having Armor User+5 can be taught to rookies. 

I started a new test fort last night in a half-haunted and half-mirthful biome. 

I also wanted to do above ground barracks so cave adaptation will not be an issue. 

However, my teacher with Teacher+3, Wrestling+5 got interrupted by undead kestrels and ravens.  So I started seeing Fighter and Dodger skill in the mix after live combat.  I was only interested in how fast Wrestling can be taught to rookies in this testing.

I may use dfhack liquids and build obsidian buildings so there is above ground cover from day 1, next time around. 

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:08:04 am by Sanctume »
Logged

Pirate Santa

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CURIOUSBEAST_EATER]
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2018, 08:54:33 pm »

A quick search fails to find any info on the wiki, but there's a theory that dwarves only spar when their weapon skill levels are relatively equal.
With the Drill Sargent being so much more skilled than the rest of his squad could that be causing them to put off sparring until they've caught up to him a bit more?
Logged
Welcome to Dwarf Fortress. Where peaceful death of old age is something nobody sees coming.
it turns out Dog Bone Doctors aren't very good at doctoring.

Colonel Sanders Lite

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 12:54:27 am »

I'm pretty sure that hypothesis is incorrect.  I'm still putting together data on this but - I currently have 3 squads training.  Each has a Drill Instructor.  Squad A has 1 fresh recruit.  Squad B has 2.  Squad C has 3.

All 3 squads where sparring within the first season.  None of the recruits had reached level 2 with their weapons while all 3 drill instructors had level 20 weapon skills.

If I had to guess, and it's just a guess, recruits need a certain amount of discipline exp before they will spar.  Perhaps level 1 discipline.
Logged

Sanctume

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 01:54:51 am »

Uniform: helm + mail shirt, no weapons, no shield.

Report after leading Wrestling Demonstration, Mid-Spring.
Founders, Initial skill.  Then I look at skill after 1 Wrestling Demonstration.

Captain Innui. Wrestler+5, Teacher+2, Organizer+1.
Wrestling+5: 3.7k / 4.5k (18.9%)

Orko. Axe+5, Disc+2, Student+2.
Wrestling+1: 989/1.1k (81.5%)

Domo.  Hammer+5, Teacher+2, Organizer+1, Student+1.
Wrestling+1: 955/1.1k (75.8%)

Sarvo. Maces+5, Teacher+2, Organizer+1, Student+1.
Wrestling+0: 60/500 (12.0%)

Urko. Spear+5, Disc+2, Student+2.
Wrestling+0: 42/500 (8.4%)

Genji. Crossbow+5, Disc+2, Student+2.
Wrestling+0: 60/500 (12.0%)

Some were late to attend; however, they all began with some Individual Drills.
There were dabbling Fighter, Dodger, and increase in Discipline skills. 

Early Summer, 1 kobold thief got chase and killed.  Then 3 undead ravens showed up and got beat up too. 

Domo was in most of the fight, which increased his Fighter skill to 3. Since Domo has tTeacher and Organizer skills, he was leading Fighting Demonstrations. 

As soon as mid-summer and Fighter+3 skills, 3 of the squads were sparring.  Discipline remained around 2 only.

I've also seen 2 Lead Fighting Demonstrations and I did not touch the schedule from the default.

Colonel Sanders Lite

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 03:06:26 am »

I was running a quick test on how to get sparring started quickly.

I had 3X2 man squads.  Each squad was equipped with plain clothes and a spear.

Squad A started with no points in anything and didn't start sparring for a good 3-5 months after the other two.

Squad B started with two points in discipline.

Squad C started with two points in discipline and 2 points in wrestler (a mistake!).

Squads B and C started sparring at virtually the same time.


The lowest observed stat for each skill when sparring began was:
Spear - 2
Discipline - 2
Fighter - 3

I suspect that both the fighter and discipline skills are important.  I'm not sure about the weapon skill.





Edit:
Further experimentation with abandoning and reclaiming the same location with different setups lead me to refine the skill setups.



All 3 of these squads started sparring on day 1.  Fighter is the only necessary skill to begin sparring.  I'm fairly sure that it must be level 3 (competent).  It may be possible that a level 3 fighter will start sparring with a level 2 fighter, but I don't think so.

Important Note - Even though these soldiers will begin sparring immediately, they won't keep it up for long stretches at a time.  They will get tired quickly.  Of course, sparring seems to be, by far, the fastest conventional way of training physical stats.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 03:52:00 am by Colonel Sanders Lite »
Logged

Sanctume

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 10:25:11 am »

Good data. 

I notice there are "Training/Rest" that happens in the 'u' unit list activity. 

I am going to look for a dfhack a utility to dump the stats of each unit to a text file.

I can get unit id using gui/gm-editor. 




daggaz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2018, 06:32:22 am »

Keep in mind that the theory is that they are more likely to spar when close in skill level, not that this is contingent on them doing it at all.  You also have the issue that if the drill instructor is delayed or the students are late, whatever, you can get two students who break off from the group and spar with each other. 

I can definitely attest to the fact that if you put a high-ranking teacher who also has relatively high ranks in one military skill, in a group of novice students with no ranks in that military skill, you WILL get a lot of lessons with the teacher leading them, far more than if you just slap a bunch of standard dwarves into a squad and let them train "normally". 

Also keep in mind, toady is quoted directly as saying teacher/student skills have a direct multiplicative effect on experience gain in a lesson. 

I've got a hunch that it is actually the likelihood of lessons which is checked first, and failing a lesson, students will check for a sparring match, and failing that, they default to individual training.   But it's just a hunch.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 06:57:42 am by daggaz »
Logged

Colonel Sanders Lite

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2018, 05:42:18 pm »

That's actually a different hypothesis than the one presented by santa above.

That being said, the data from experiment 1 above strongly implies that this is not the case.


If you look through the full season by season data from experiment 1, here are the relevant points of observation to note:

First, we can measure the amount of demonstration watching a recruit has done pretty directly by observing their studying skill.

Second, we can get a good idea of the amount of sparring a student has done by observing his discipline skill.  I'm not positive, but I believe that no discipline is gained from observing a demonstration.  Regardless, we can observe that the amount of discipline gained from individual combat drills, combined with any potential gains from watching demonstrations, is a mere trickle.  During the first season, most recruits in squad B gained 2 levels in discipline.  During the third season, they mostly gained between 2 and 3 levels in discipline and those levels had much steeper exp requirements to boot.  In essence, while a soldier could probably attain level 20 discipline from individual combat drills alone (if he didn't die of old age first...), he would be rapidly outpaced by another soldier that was sparring, even just a few months out of the year.


Having established some rulers, we can see that each soldier in squad B spent almost as much time watching demonstrations as the soldiers in squad A did.  Squad B simply started sparring sooner and pretty much just maintained that initial lead.



My working hypothesis at the moment is this:
Each soldier attempts to balance his training schedule between two tasks at a fixed ratio:  Sparring and Demonstrations.  A recruit will do individual combat drills in two specific situations.  First, if he is scheduled to spar, and cannot due to fatigue, lack of partners, etc.  Second, if he is scheduled to participate in a demonstration but cannot, due to lack of demonstrable skills, lack of partners, etc.  We have no real control over how this internal schedule is laid out, but it is possible that some factor may effect it.  For example, perhaps a dwarf that likes to brawl will have a higher ratio of sparring to demonstration.


The skills demonstrated seem to have less to do with the gap between teacher and student, and more to do with an internal priority arrangement based on a minimum level of competence.  For example, we can see pretty clearly that squad A was heavily focused on dodging and, to a lesser degree, striking first.  What internal mechanism determines the order of this priority system, I don't know.  All I can say is that if it was based purely on the gap between skill levels, the skill gains from demonstrations in squad A would have been much more uniformly distributed, as the teacher was level 20 in nearly everything.

The reason that squad B gained an initial sparring lead is very simple.  They had no dodging or striking skills to demonstrate.  The only skills they where gaining from individual combat drills where fighter and discipline, which led to demonstrations between students on fighting, simply because it was the only skill they could demonstrate.  This means they hit level 3 fighter sooner.

Similarly, Squad A gained an initial studying lead and simply maintained it for the exact same reason.  Their teacher did have a dodging and striking skills to demonstrate.  Since the demonstration portion of their schedule was taken up by these lessons, they did not gain fighter as quickly.
Logged

Colonel Sanders Lite

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2018, 07:22:07 pm »

Oh, and a corollary to the above:

I also hypothesize that the because of the way the internal spar/demonstration schedule works, when a squad only has two soldiers, the demonstration conditions have a much harder time being met.  I don't understand the game's scheduling system well enough to explain why exactly this is, but suppose that the monthly schedule looks something like this:

Dwarf 0
Spar for 15 days
Demonstrations for 15 days.

Dwarf 1
Demonstrations for 8 days.
Spar for 15 days.
Demonstrations for 7 days.

Dwarf 2
Demonstrations for 15 days.
Spar for 15 days.

Dwarves 3-9 copy the schedules of dwarves 0-3 in sequence


If the squad size is 2:
Dwarf 0 and Dwarf 1 are demonstrating at the same time for 7 days out of the month.

If the squad size is 3+:
All dwarves are scheduled to demonstrate with at least one other dwarf for 15 days out of the month.

Now suppose that a dwarf that is scheduled to spar is able to begin sparring with any dwarf in the squad that is not currently involved in a demonstration.  This creates far more sparring opportunities for the 2 dwarf squad as demonstration is only even possible for 7 days.


I can't stress enough that the schedule layout above is pure conjecture.  Conjecture in line with the actual data and my own observations after days of carefully watching dwarves train, but conjecture nonetheless!



This explains two things to me:
In the preliminary data for experiment 2 above, Squad A with a squad size of 2 seemed to spar pretty much constantly.  I haven't put together the full data for the experiment yet, but I can tell you that over the course of two years, the recruit gained half the studying experience that the recruits in the 3 and 4 soldier squads gained.

I don't have complete data for the quick test on the minimum requirements to spar above, but I can tell you anecdotally, that the initial test batch of recruits with no fighting skill took much longer to even begin sparring than I was expecting.  I expect that the reason for this is that they had a harder time meeting the requirements for a fighting demonstration than the larger squads I have been experimenting with elsewhere.
Logged

daggaz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 02:10:51 am »

You can't measure the time they spend in a demonstration by looking at their studying skill. You have NO idea what actually makes that skill gain ranks, the only way to accurately measure time spent in demonstrations is to observe dwarves demonstrating.


Put three dwarves into a squad with one strong teacher and you WILL observe more demonstrations than otherwise. Hands down.
Logged

Colonel Sanders Lite

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 08:29:14 am »

You have NO idea what actually makes that skill gain ranks

Yes, I do.  It's not complicated.  Watching a demonstration yields student exp.  Sparring, leading a demonstration, and individual drills do not.  I know this from hours of observation.

Put three dwarves into a squad with one strong teacher and you WILL observe more demonstrations than otherwise. Hands down.

My observations say that this has little to do with the teacher.  A recruit with fighter 3 will demonstrate fighting to a recruit with fighter 2.  A recruit with axe 5 will demonstrate to a recruit with axe 4.  The teaching skill may make a demonstration yield more experience, but that would have an *inverse* effect on the amount of demonstrations being done.


If you disagree with me, design an experiment and demonstrate that I am wrong.
Logged

Sanctume

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 11:10:59 am »

Quick info: Armor User gains 8 exp per hit.  No exp gain from "misses" off combat log.

A recruit who had Armor User 0 joins a fight vs an undead raven.
Undead raven scratches recruit for whatever damage.
Undead raven misses the recruit a couple of times.

These were the only entry in the combat log for the recruit vs the undead raven.

(IIRC) Dwarf Therapist listed Armor User 8/500 points; at Armor User Skill = 0 going to 1.

I have not been successful in observing a beginning of a spar session to check Armor User skill gains yet.

Ulfarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • Going on a pilgrimage to Mars
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training !!Science!!
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2018, 05:17:50 pm »

Strange news everyone!

https://imgur.com/Vos6h4K

I don't know how (un)important that might be, but I just found out that dwarves can (and will) perform weapon demonstrations without having the actual weapon equipped. On the example above, the higlighted dwarf is the one leading a warhammer demonstration and as can been seen he has no weapon equiped on himself. In fact there isn't a single warhammer in this fort.

Probable factors:
 1. The squad's uniform consists of just a  "war hammer" and is set to "over clothing".
 2. One of the soldiers (eshtan stigazid in the photo) had lvl 1 hammerdwarf before joining the squad. The rest started with no weapon skills.

Logged
Bring Kobold Kamp to LNP! graphics compatibility fix.

So the conclusion I'm getting here is that we use QSPs because dwarves can't pilot submarines.
Pages: 1 [2] 3