I have the results from my training experiment and so… here comes the rant. In order to keep the post readable, I’ll post both a tl,dr version and a more detailed report, inside spoilers. If you believe that the more detailed version is outside the scope of this thread or it belongs in a different forum section please say so and I'll post it there.
TL,DR:
First thing first, I have to admit I was wrong in saying that focusing wrestling training is inefficient. If your training goal is either to increase your citizens survivability or to produce (in the long term) soldiers with good defensive skills then starting with wrestling is the best option.
My conclusions are:
1) Wrestling training is the best/fastest way to increase both dodge and armor user skill.
2) Training with both a weapon and shield, cause every skill except weapon, discipline, shield, fighter to lag behind. Shield user does increase faster than dodge and armor though. Average WS’s Shield user level was 14.29 by the end of fourth year.
3) Training with a weapon but without a shield, will result in a middle ground between wrestling and weapon + shield training. Compared to the shield users, these dwarves will have equal weapon skills, better wrestling (+ non-weapon combat skills), better dodge and better armor. They will be worse than the pure wrestlers at their shared skills.
4) Dwarves can achieve their maximum attributes, regardless of the training method. (<- This conclusion has not been affected by my mistake as discribed in "edit #2")
5) Shields only training is ineffective for raw recruits. They won't spar so they'll only increase Discipline, Dodger and Shield User.
Detailed version:
Disclaimer:
This experiment does NOT test the combat effectiveness of each build, only their training capabilities. For example, just because using a shield stuns the progress of the Armor User and Dodger skills,it doesn't mean that you shouldn't give shield to your dwarves when they do have to fight. In fact, i would argue that the very fact that it does that, is a testament to the effectiveness of shield user as a defensive skill.
Abbreviations:
WR: Wrestler, Wrestling or Wrestling Training
WO: Weapon only, it will refer to both the squad and their training plan
WS: Weapon and shield, it will refer to both the squad and their training plan
SO: Shield only, it will refer to both the squad and their training plan
Full Armor: A set of breastplate, mail shirt, helm, high boots, gauntlets, greaves, cloak, waterskin and backpack.
The experiment:
21 dwarves, with absolutely no prior combat skills (not even at dabbling level), were divided, randomly, to 3 squads of 7 dwarves each and were outfitted with a full armor set made of copper.
Each squad was also equipped with either a weapon or a weapon + shield or no weapon at all. WS dwarves had copper war hammers and copper shields while WO dwarves had copper maces.
All three squads would start their training at the same time and would follow the same schedule for as long as the experiment would run. According to the schedule each squad will have 6 active members plus 1 who was free. Whether the free member would keep training on their own, socialize, masturbate or participate in housekeeping activities would be decided by the game and any effect on their training should even out as the years pass.
In order to minimize lost time during training, squad members will carry the maximum amount of food (3 days?) and alcohol (1 day?), sleep at their respective barracks and keep on uniform even when on leave. A big food stockpile has also been set near the barracks in order to save time on resupply trips.
The initial length of the experiment was 10 to 20 years, however by year 4 all three squads had already bypassed my and Dwarf Therapist’s ability to monitor their growth in a quick manner, so I just ended the experiment at that point. (Is it possible to change how DT displays skills that grow beyond 20?)
*Added on 9/2/2018*
A fourth squad (SO) has been formed in order to test the "wrestler+ shield" set up. In order to keep this experiment comparable to the initial one, these dwarves were outfitted with the same full armor kit + a copper shield each, they would follow the exact same schedule of year long training (6 active members+1 on leave) and they would have no combat skills prior to their training.
Observations:
1. Sparring occurs after the dwarves have reached a certain level in some specific skills. The WS were the first to start sparring while the WR were the last. I believe the reason is that WR dedicated , initially, more time to Striker demonstrations than to Wrestler demonstrations, causing them to lag behind in the skill, which I suspect, controls whether they can spar or not.
2. By the end of the first year, WS we already lagging behind in both armor and dodge skills compared to the other squads. This difference will only widen in the course of the following years. WO were somewhat better at keeping up with WR at both skill than WS, but they too would still fall behind eventually.
3. WR would achieve high levels of Discipline faster than the other squads. However both WS and WO would catch up with them by the end of year 3. I suspect Discipline is the skill that is mostly affected by a dwarf’s personality.
4. A similar case was observed with the Fighter skill. WS would achieve a high level faster, but by the end of year 3 all squad would be at similar levels.
5. Speaking of dwarven personalities, I believe the rate at which the actual combat skill grow is not directly related to their personality but to the time each dwarf spends sparring/training. However I suspect that their personalities do affect the way the game decides which member will be at leave each month or how often and for how long they will spar.
6. By year 3, most dwarves had already achieved their maximum attributes. The rate at which each of them achieved it is suspected to be independent from their training method. (I might take a better look at their attributes at a later time).
7. WO and WS were the first squad to achieve elite status for all their members.
8. Throughout the years both WS and WO would achieve similar levels at their respective weapon skills.
9. After the first year of the experiment the WR would maintain a constant advantage in both armor and dodge skill. By the end of the experiment the average WR’s skill level for dodge was 10.29 (9.14 /8.14 for WO and WS respectively) and for armor was 13.71 (10.86/ 8.43 for WO/WS).
10. As expected all squads did train their Wrestler skill during the experiment. By the end of it, the average skill level for each squad was 19.14 (WR), 15.86 (WO), 10.71 (WS). The greatest difference however is that while WS and WO trained their respective weapon skills, WR would train Striker, Kicker and Bitter skills which should result in WR being far better wrestlers than what the Wrestler skill difference would suggest.
11. No injuries were observed during the four years of the experiment. Not by myself or by the game's combat logs. There is a slight possibility that some minor injury might have happened, while I would let DF to run in the background, but I found no evidence of any dwarf going to the hospital area OR of any dwarf getting better at doctor skills.
12. While I forgot to take detailed notes on the initial level of the subjects’ teacher and student skills, my data suggest that they both increase fairly easily during the various demonstrations that take place mostly at the initial stages of their training.
*Added on 9/2/2018 (based on a one in game year long experiment)*
13. At the end of 12th month of training, the SO squad had achieved similar levels of Discipline and Dodger to their WS counterparts, while also achieving a three times higher average Shield user skill.
14. Giving shields to recruits with no fighting skills seems to result in them being stuck in endless "individual combat drills". While these drills are effective in training a few specific skills (discipline, dodger, shield user) and their related attributes, the squad will not start sparring so the rest of their combat skills will not increase.
Conclusions:
1) Wrestling training is the best/fastest way to increase both dodge and armor user skill. It is also the best way to train non-weapon combat skill making it the best method to train civilian dwarves. It is also arguably the most cost efficient too since it requires less equipment.
2) Training with both a weapon and shield, cause every skill except weapon, discipline, shield, fighter to lag behind. Shield user does increase faster than dodge and armor though. Average WS’s Shield user level was 14.29 by the end of fourth year.
3) Training with a weapon but without a shield, will result in a middle ground between wrestling and weapon + shield training. Compared to the shield users, these dwarves will have equal weapon skills, better wrestling (+ non-weapon combat skills), better dodge and better armor. They will be worse than the pure wrestlers at their shared skills.
4) Dwarves can achieve their maximum attributes, regardless of the training method. (<- This conclusion has not been affected by my mistake as discribed in "edit #2")
5) Current data suggests that maximum combat skill level is either independent of a dwarf’s personality or high enough to not be observable. I might be wrong in this though.
*Added on 9/2/2018 (based on a one in game year long experiment)*
6) SO training is ineffective in producing good soldiers, at least from recruits with absolutely no prior fighting skills. The results might be different if your recruits start their training with a few levels in a weapon skill/wrestler OR if you assign a veteran dwarf to teach them these skills through demonstrations, so they can start sparring.
Training Suggestion:
At this point, my opinion for the best way to train your dwarves would be to start with a wrestling focused training plan and when your dwarves reach the desired level of defensive/non weapon skills then swap to a weapon and shield program. That way, you'll circumvent the limitations of of the WS program while not wasting time with an unnecessary* weapons only stage.
*After the wrestling only training, a weapons only program will give little benefit in non weapon/defensive skills outside of preventing skill rust, which is also achievable via a weapon and shield method.
This is already too long of post as it is, so I won’t post any charts or data tables. If anyone wants to take a look at the data I gathered then I’d be happy to give them to him/her.
edit #1: Added the "Training Suggestion" section in the "Detailed version".
edit #2 (5/2/2018): It appears I've made a mistake with my interpretation of Dwarf Therapist's
attribute scale. As feelotraveller explained to me, it ranks attributes in relation with the rest of your population. That means that a dwarf with a stable score throughout the years hasn't necessarily reached his maximum in that attribute (as I thought) but that he remains in the same rank compared to his fellows. Due to the way that I've collected my data (taking screenshots), I sadly don't have access to the ingame attribute values so my observations on attribute groth is inconclusive at best and plainly wrong at worst.
edit #3 (9/2/2018): Updated to include the results from the "wrestler + shield" squad.
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Topic: Wrestling as start for military training (Read 11815 times)