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[hector13]

That's not what I mean though. They've gone into this knowing that they have three movies to tell a story, thus you can't really make an assessment of how good that story is until you've seen all three movies.

The movies have all had their own stories to tell, for better or worse, but there's been the thread of stuff happening that has been shared through both movies so far that need to be tied off (or at least give the audience a pay off) in the 9th. Most of that is centred around Kylo Ren and Stimpy Rey.

Those are the issues I have. I can separate my distaste for the smaller aspects (why the fleet in the very first scene followed Poe in when he was told by a superior officer to back off, for example, or what the point of the entire sequence on the planet with the casino was.) from my curiosity at how the story ends. So long as Finn's dead, it's all cool.

[Dunamisdeos]

I am an optimistic fellow so I will totally go see the third one. I enjoyed watching TLJ in theaters even with it's dumb flaws.

[Reelya]

Those are the issues I have. I can separate my distaste for the smaller aspects (why the fleet in the very first scene followed Poe in when he was told by a superior officer to back off, for example, or what the point of the entire sequence on the planet with the casino was.) from my curiosity at how the story ends.

My real problem is that I don't think they've set up character threads interesting enough to actually give a shit how it ends, now. It could end any fucking way you like, and because of that, it means whatever they do will probably feel pretty arbitrary. I'd argue that there were more plot threads that needed to be resolved from ESB to ROJ, but they were more meaningful: Han needed to be rescued (not because of some arbitrary scenario, but because of a plot thread which started literally when Han was first introduced), so they could elaborate that whole thing as a huge set-piece adventure, which causes the movies to flow together, but also gives the audience breathing space to get ready for the main mission. the real meat here was that Luke x Vader x Emperor all had their own agendas in ESB, which needed to be resolved in ROJ. Luke wanted to defeat the emperor, and free his father, Vader wanted Luke to help him kill the emperor and rule the galaxy, while the emperor wanted luke to kill Vader and serve him in his place. Meanwhile, Han and Leia had a growing relationship, while Han was nervous that Luke and Leia would end up together. It's an intricate set of relationships that's worth having a whole movie to resolve it. Any equivalent in the current movies is only a shallow imitation of the set of relationships building up in ANH -> ESB -> ROJ.

Poe's a dead duck: went from happy-go-lucky ace pilot, messed up, now he's going to be triumphant hero dude in the finale. Who cares what shit Poe does next? He doesn't have any depth or elements to him.

Finn: had the most interesting backstory, completely squandered as he's running around just reacting to events and not really going anywhere. Shoe-horn in a fake love interest out of nowhere. Also, to be "inclusive" he's got an Asian girl now, but notice how they pair the minorities together, so that's actually a regressive step. For all the talk of "inclusion" this Star Wars is still pretty "white", and segregates off it's non-white characters together. And anyway, Finn has basically zero personality or quirks. His being a stormtrooper is moot. Let's say he's the story equivalent of Han Solo from ANH. Han Solo's background mattered to how he acted, and ultimately, to his big life-changing events. So far, Finn having been a stormtrooper hasn't really affected the plot at all. You could change just a few scenes in the first movie, and exactly 1 line of dialogue in TLJ, and have him as a moisture farmer on Jakku who just happened to fall in with Rey.

Rey, while she could have been interesting, is basically a non-starter too. Nice that she has a "twilight-esque" entanglement with the vampire villain. So more or less the only thing interesting going on, character-development-wise*, and it's basically the plot of something like Twilight or Vampire Diaries. I think the fact that teenage girls have scored every Star Wars movie noticeably higher than any other demographic (since at least Return of the Jedi) isn't lost on these people. Kylo Ren being all 'emo' isn't any accident, and it's obvious why it's incongrous to the old-school vocal fans: it's basically injecting the teen vampire movie pathos into the franchise because they have seen the demographic data better than we have.

* luke going crazy and sucking milk from alien cow nipples doesn't count as main-story character development: that's a cameo.

[Putnam]

i'm posting this because i feel like it's relevant but i'm not sure i agree

[Reelya]

It's an interesting take, but I don't really agree either:

So that giant asteroid worm can breathe in space? It should’ve died in seconds.

Who said giant space worms even "breathe"? Maybe they just don't, being native to space and all. Leia was human however. Humans breathe. And this is why the "giant space worm" isn't ridiculous but "flying Space Leia" is.

It seems to be a pattern here, where counter-critics pick apart any criticism by finding superficial similarities with the other movies. And those comparisons manage to completely miss the core of the criticism.

e.g. comparing all the sight gags in TLJ to the character-based humor of Empire Strikes Back. Yeah, there's always been humor in Star Wars, but it was always character-based humor, and not deliberately set up ridiculous sight gags.

e.g. the "space iron" scene was funny the first time I saw it, but only for a second, then I was rolling my eyes at how dumb the thing was, and wishing it just didn't exist. It also breaks the fourth wall - since it's a reference to docking scenes in other Star Wars movies, which it deliberate sets you up to think it is, then shows you a mundane item from the real world instead - a regular 20th century iron, identical to normal irons in Earth houses. So, rather than following the story my thought process was "oh a ship is docking, but it looks like an iron - Oh it is an Iron - what the fuck is an iron doing in Star Wars". It breaks the 4th wall by setting up a familiar trope then breaking that trope in a way that references a real-world thing that really shouldn't exist in Star Wars at all - thus it reminds you that it's just a movie: you lose your suspension of disbelief from this sort of humor.

Meanwhile, character-based humor actually gets funnier the more you know the characters, and pulls you in, not out of the story. Which is why e.g. C3PO obliviously breaking up a romantic moment between Han and Leia is good comedy: it's good because it's dealing with real human emotions.

The other humor example is Poe prank calling Hux. This is also something that's amusing on first listen, but it's just too lame to enjoy on repeat viewings: it just makes the villains seem pathetic. Which is the worst sin you can do if you want tension. It resembles the humor from Star Wars parodies such as Chad Vader, or Space Balls or something. e.g. the bad guys in Space Balls were in fact scarier than the First Order.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

i'm posting this because i feel like it's relevant but i'm not sure i agree

The difference is timing and pacing, IMO. Additionally, the whole movie is campy, action, love, and humor. There's a bit of a tonal disconnect in TLJ (TFA is pretty straight-laced in comparison, but has its own cheesy moments with feel out of place too.)

[Reelya]

Also, as my last post mentions (in an edit) jokes like the "space iron" break the fourth wall and pull you out of the story.

That's because the scene is referential, but it's a reference to how Star Wars movies are edited, rather than to things that the characters could be aware of. Basically, it's referencing/reminding you of the fourth wall, which is why it breaks the fourth wall. It sets up a familar scene, then subverts it. So the joke is the subversion itself, which makes you think "oh haha I thought I was watching a docking scene but it was subverted", which is almost like actually writing on the screen "btw this is just a movie, don't get too absorbed in the story, now". But then to top it off, it shoe-horns in a mundane Earth item as the punchline to the gag. So now you're reminded that this is just a movie and you're wondering "do they have irons in Star Wars?" which also breaks immersion.

And because it was so visually in-your-face and broke the fourth wall, i recall them breaking the fourth wall much better than I recall what happened immediately before and after it.

[Egan_BW]

Also, as my last post mentions (in an edit) jokes like the "space iron" break the fourth wall and pull you out of the story.

That's because the scene is referential, but it's a reference to how Star Wars movies are edited, rather than to things that the characters could be aware of. Basically, it's referencing/reminding you of the fourth wall, which is why it breaks the fourth wall. It sets up a familar scene, then subverts it. So the joke is the subversion itself, which makes you think "oh haha I thought I was watching a docking scene but it was subverted", which is almost like actually writing on the screen "btw this is just a movie, don't get too absorbed in the story, now". But then to top it off, it shoe-horns in a mundane Earth item as the punchline to the gag. So now you're reminded that this is just a movie and you're wondering "do they have irons in Star Wars?" which also breaks immersion.

And because it was so visually in-your-face and broke the fourth wall, i recall them breaking the fourth wall much better than I recall what happened immediately before and after it.

I didn't interpret that as a joke or anything when I saw it. I was like "oh hey that's a robot ironing some clothes. This makes sense because even in space clothes need washing and ironing." The fact that the movie is reminding me that mundane things happen in this universe helped increase my immersion, because I wasn't looking for a joke there.
And why wouldn't they have irons in Starwars? They have things like swords and pens and goggles and earthen building, and not really that many things that I find totally alien. If something exists in real life, I assume something similar exists in Starwars.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I mean... I fully support everyone having their own interpretations of movies, but it was very obviously a visual gag.

[Reelya]

They have cars, but they're hover cars. They have swords but they are laser swords. etc etc.

The real problem was that the shape of the iron was identical to mid-20th century iron designs.

[Egan_BW]

What do you expect, an iron that shoot lasers?

[Reelya]

i expect something that's an iron, but designed by someone who never saw one of our irons. The problem was that the design was clearly influenced by Earth designs. Basically, that standard shape of iron came out of exactly one culture on Earth, other Earth cultures didn't independently design the same shape of iron. And that's just on our planet.

but also, in a galaxy far, far away, long, long ago, they just shouldn't have design templates that are identical to just stuff we made in the last 100 years. It would be the same as making someone who drives a hover-car but it's clearly a Volkswagen Beetle. It would not be an appropriate design.

[Reelya]

It was a robotic ironing board ironing imperial uniforms. With what is clearly an iron based on the post-war American designs of electric steam irons.

I'm not saying Star Wars shouldn't have irons, but they just shouldn't have specific designs that mirror our own design history. I mean, we don't even know what an iron might look like in 100 years, let alone to believe that our old designs are somehow a universal thing that all cultures must eventually develop.

We also have to believe that the entire imperial military never developed a fabric that doesn't get all wrinkly.

[Reelya]

I remember it because the site gag pulls you right out of the movie if you pick it up. e.g. they make it look like a ship docking (my first reaction was "wtf, that ship is shaped like an iron") then pull back to reveal that it's an iron ("oh it is an actual iron"). Guarantee that you'll notice it next time.

Humor is all well and good but this is sort of poking fun at the medium itself, which is not necessarily bad, but it definitely breaks you out of the story, and that's not necessarily a good writing decision for a narrative-driven series. In-character humor is a completely different thing, because it operates within the setting.

[scriver]

I never noticed any ironing scene at all either.