Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GoblinCookie]

This is the DF forum, we're far too civilized for that.

I have plenty of experience to the contrary.   

[KittyTac]

This is the DF forum, we're far too civilized for that.

I have plenty of experience to the contrary.   

Oh, the "horrifying" stories? Heard these, felt apathy at that.

[Xyon]

The Bell Curve !

If we read books we have to buy books.  Buying books gives money to the people who made the books, which are the people we don't approve of.  The more racist books there are, the more racists are published because that is how markets work.  Do we want racists to get published and get an impressionable audience to turn into more racists?

I haven't read the book, and whether you read it or not is still up to you. But I just checked my local library's catalog and they have "The Bell Curve" available.  So if you have a good library you could get it for free, they already have the book so if you're worried about 'supporting' the author you can get it from the library without supporting the author. And you might be able to find it at a used book store, or get it 'used' from Amazon. Each of these would require buying the book but since they are secondary sales none of the money would go to the author.

Didn't think I'd contribute to this thread but I thought I'd step in just to point out a little bit of investigative logic in how you can read books without 'supporting the author'.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Go to the library, read it there without anyone seeing, put it carefully back on the shelf. Apply a sprinkling of dust to fool librarians into thinking nobody's touched the book in decades. That should work. No promotion, no hits, no statistics.

[TheNirl]

Well, wouldn't a war mechanic, where battles eventually became wars, which eventually became a divide between two civilizations, go to the same effect? If the two civs are two different races, you'd have a bigotry component there without necessarily having to deal with the depths of prejudice Toady was talking about that could potentially harm gameplay. Like, I think he just doesn't want an in-depth "racism mechanic", but I'm not seeing him denying the possibility of underlying conflict that's so underlying that its roots are barely traceable, and the conflict only stands on bigotry.

[GoblinCookie]

Go to the library, read it there without anyone seeing, put it carefully back on the shelf. Apply a sprinkling of dust to fool librarians into thinking nobody's touched the book in decades. That should work. No promotion, no hits, no statistics.

 

Well, wouldn't a war mechanic, where battles eventually became wars, which eventually became a divide between two civilizations, go to the same effect? If the two civs are two different races, you'd have a bigotry component there without necessarily having to deal with the depths of prejudice Toady was talking about that could potentially harm gameplay. Like, I think he just doesn't want an in-depth "racism mechanic", but I'm not seeing him denying the possibility of underlying conflict that's so underlying that its roots are barely traceable, and the conflict only stands on bigotry.

That was basically my idea yes, though by default the conflict is against the civilization members regardless of appearance.  The appearance information (which they use to guess civilisation membership) actually takes on a life of it's own, provided the raws define the civilization as prejudiced.  Otherwise it is just used to guess stuff, rather than to actually reach conclusions in isolation about anyone.

[Eligiblefoot]

I would actually love to see some form of prejudice ingame. Imagine two dwarf civilizations feuding because one civ likes to wear pig tail socks while the other likes jute socks or something.  I'm confused as it why it makes people uncomfortable. You can already do some pretty horrible things in dwarf fortress. I just can't see how one evil act or interaction is okay but another isn't. Being able to Genocide entire races is okay but adding in actual reasoning for that genocide isn't okay? (very horrible reasoning mind you)

[KittyTac]

I would actually love to see some form of prejudice ingame. Imagine two dwarf civilizations feuding because one civ likes to wear pig tail socks while the other likes jute socks or something.  I'm confused as it why it makes people uncomfortable. You can already do some pretty horrible things in dwarf fortress. I just can't see how one evil act or interaction is okay but another isn't. Being able to Genocide entire races is okay but adding in actual reasoning for that genocide isn't okay? (very horrible reasoning mind you)

That's exactly my point.

[MachinaMandala]

The Bell Curve !

If we read books we have to buy books.  Buying books gives money to the people who made the books, which are the people we don't approve of.  The more racist books there are, the more racists are published because that is how markets work.  Do we want racists to get published and get an impressionable audience to turn into more racists?

I highly recommend you actually go and read a book instead of reading about what Tumblrinas who've never read it think.

[Jesterdwarf]

Y'all just prejudiced against prejudice. Please stop with this prejudicism, it's my trigger.
Also I think prejudice should not be in the game because of course having some imaginary people being prejudiced against other imaginary creatures will instanly make all players racist, nazi, jewish, homophobic and KKK members simultaneously. Toady will basically be second Hitler if not worse for including, however partially, prejudice in a simulation game.

[Boltgun]

I would love to have the opportunity for someone to call me a dildo because of my beard, then punch him in the face.

[KittyTac]

Y'all just prejudiced against prejudice. Please stop with this prejudicism, it's my trigger.
Also I think prejudice should not be in the game because of course having some imaginary people being prejudiced against other imaginary creatures will instanly make all players racist, nazi, jewish, homophobic and KKK members simultaneously. Toady will basically be second Hitler if not worse for including, however partially, prejudice in a simulation game.

Yeah. At least that was sarcasm. I share your point. Simulated characters aren't even alive by any stretch of imagination. They're just data. They're nothing. They can't think.

[deathpunch578]

I would love to have the opportunity for someone to call me a dildo because of my beard, then punch him in the face.

"YOU DARE HAVE ONLY THREE BRAIDS IN YOUR BEARD! YOU FUCKING UNCIVILIZED TROGLODYTE"
beard prejudice is the only acceptable prejudice between two dwarves.
also I remember someone suggesting a prejudice slider, I think prejudice should be in the game for the realism but there should be a slider or two for it (1. amount of prejudice 2. intensity of prejudice)

[JesterHell696]

For me prejudice is important because DF has human's in it and human's have a reputation to up hold when it comes to prejudice, I mean, given how humans have treated each other IRL the idea that they wouldn't have any prejudice against goblins, elves and dwarves is a bit of a stretch for me.

I guess I just feel that at the bare minimum humans should be able to have irrational prejudices based upon race.

I would actually love to see some form of prejudice ingame. Imagine two dwarf civilizations feuding because one civ likes to wear pig tail socks while the other likes jute socks or something.  I'm confused as it why it makes people uncomfortable. You can already do some pretty horrible things in dwarf fortress. I just can't see how one evil act or interaction is okay but another isn't. Being able to Genocide entire races is okay but adding in actual reasoning for that genocide isn't okay? (very horrible reasoning mind you)

That's exactly my point.

Also this, it the same kind of suspension of disbelief killer that the unkillable npc's in Bethesda games are, you can murder whole towns full of people, except the children and "essentials"...

I would love to have the opportunity for someone to call me a dildo because of my beard, then punch him in the face.

"YOU DARE HAVE ONLY THREE BRAIDS IN YOUR BEARD! YOU FUCKING UNCIVILIZED TROGLODYTE"
beard prejudice is the only acceptable prejudice between two dwarves.
also I remember someone suggesting a prejudice slider, I think prejudice should be in the game for the realism but there should be a slider or two for it (1. amount of prejudice 2. intensity of prejudice)

I would just connect prejudice to the "horror" slider in normal world gen and have multiple settings in advanced gen.

[KittyTac]

Looks like prejudice is winning ATM. *prepares for picking on elves. With style!*