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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Khan Boyzitbig]

No point in me casting a vote, highly doubt any other battleplan will get over 10 votes and I approve of it anyway.

[andrea]

Indeed, not worth the clicks There simply is no other sensible option.

Can't wait to see next turn, I want to know the effect of carriers.

[evictedSaint]

Damn Canola Oil, holding up the game >:T

[Taricus]

NFPP ANNOUNCE FORMATION OF CIVIL DEFENCE GROUP

In a statement to the press today, Nikolai Antonov announced the formation the of the 'Civil Defence Group', aimed at stemming the tide of separatist led violence. Enthusiastic that the new 'greyshirts' will be capable of stopping the violence where the police force hasn't been able to, the CDG's members are expecting to start patrolling the streets later this month

[Strongpoint]

Oh. This is back. Count me in. Considered joining the other side but... Pirates...

Aircraft carrier is not a step I like, we have no real escorts but I think it was expected result of "aircraft carriers obsoleted battleships" myth. Let's hope loses will not be as huge as I expect. Surprised that no one offered submarines the ultimate weapon of the side with smaller Navy (BTW, I can bet that it will be their answer to carriers should they be somewhat successful)

PS. what about jet aircrafts for the next turn to fill the very expensive slot?

[Taricus]

Jet tech is at impossible. Not a good proposition.

[Strongpoint]

Jet tech is at impossible. Not a good proposition.

Turbojet is definitely just very hard. Quoting sensei A very hard design is something which world powers struggled with for years to get right, like radar or jet engines. It represents the very cutting edge of technology. 

I think it may be a good gamble\long term investment with only 1 in 3 chance to completely fail.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Jet tech is at impossible. Not a good proposition.

Turbojet is definitely just very hard. Quoting sensei A very hard design is something which world powers struggled with for years to get right, like radar or jet engines. It represents the very cutting edge of technology. 

I think it may be a good gamble\long term investment with only 1 in 3 chance to completely fail.

He's seriously contemplating on moving it up once I pointed out the first Jet Engines have yet to be tested and require a new material science to be truly good in an attempt to get the difficulty of Radar reduced to Hard.

[Azzuro]

"aircraft carriers obsoleted battleships" myth.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that this is a myth?

Aircraft carriers are better for Forenia as we have a general that improves our air ability, so projecting that air advantage into the ocean is a reasonable step to take, especially as said air bonus will remain for the entire game.

As for jet engines, I don't currently see the need for them as we have air superiority for now. And I believe the other example that you quoted of radar would be better for us in cementing that air superiority.

[Parsely]

Aircraft carrier is not a step I like, we have no real escorts but I think it was expected result of "aircraft carriers obsoleted battleships" myth.

Not a myth. The last American battleship was commissioned in 1944, and we're still commissioning aircraft carriers to this day. All a battleship is is a vehicle for delivering artillery and anti-aircraft fire. Aircraft carriers can do everything that battleships can do and in a more cost-effective manner.

[Strongpoint]

Out of curiosity, why do you think that this is a myth?

Battleships\cruisers got obsoleted by missiles and they were withdrawn from service when those became common not when aircraft carriers appeared. During WW2 both aircraft carriers and battleships were used and built.

There are no reason to use one huge ship when you can build a bunch of smaller ones with the same amount of firepower. And thick armor doesn't help against modern anti-ship weapons.

The last American battleship was commissioned in 1944, and we're still commissioning aircraft carriers to this day.

This proves that battleships are obsolete, aircraft carriers are not. It doesn't proof that battleships are obsoleted by aircraft carriers.

Aircraft carriers can do everything that battleships can do and in a more cost-effective manner.

Nope. Missile armed destroyers\frigates can do everything that battleships or cruisers can do in a more cost effective manner. The only exception is heavy shore bombardment but modern armed forces don't need that preferring accuracy to quantity.

[Taricus]

That being said, our carriers will be pretty damn common compared to their larger ships.

[evictedSaint]

If a single one of our carriers can kill - or even disable - a single one of their ships in a 1v1 fight, then we come out ahead.  We would have effectively surpassed four of their designs with a single one of ours.

[Azzuro]

Out of curiosity, why do you think that this is a myth?

Battleships\cruisers got obsoleted by missiles and they were withdrawn from service when those became common not when aircraft carriers appeared. During WW2 both aircraft carriers and battleships were used and built.

There are no reason to use one huge ship when you can build a bunch of smaller ones with the same amount of firepower. And thick armor doesn't help against modern anti-ship weapons.

The last American battleship was commissioned in 1944, and we're still commissioning aircraft carriers to this day.

This proves that battleships are obsolete, aircraft carriers are not. It doesn't proof that battleships are obsoleted by aircraft carriers.

Aircraft carriers can do everything that battleships can do and in a more cost-effective manner.

Nope. Missile armed destroyers\frigates can do everything that battleships or cruisers can do in a more cost effective manner. The only exception is heavy shore bombardment but modern armed forces don't need that preferring accuracy to quantity.

Ok, firstly you haven't actually answered Gunin's point that battleships stopped being commissioned after WWII. Unless you think that the state of guided missile technology in 1944 was enough to obsolete them? No, battleships were directly countered by aircraft through torpedo and dive bombing, and obsoleted by carrier air wings being far longer-ranged than any naval gun could hope to achieve and battles being conducted at those ranges. He's comparing when they stopped being commissioned, you're comparing when they were decommissioned. I would argue that the former is more relevant than the latter as navies stop building things that are proven not to be effective, but generally hang on to things already built anyway.

And what are the advantages of missiles over naval guns anyway? Range, cost effectiveness, precision? Those are qualities that aircraft also share, albeit in lesser measure.

You also aren't addressing his comparison between carriers and battleships, instead putting in your own comparison between missile-armed ships and traditional battleships.

[Strongpoint]

No, battleships were directly countered by aircraft through torpedo and dive bombing

USA lost 2 battleships in WW2. Both in a surprise attack.  Did Japan had no  torpedo\dive bombers? Were is that "directly countered"? And why USA bothered producing more battleships during the war if they were countered?

Ok, firstly you haven't actually answered Gunin's point that battleships stopped being commissioned after WWII.

USA and Britain had enough of them with all other navies either being destroyed or being way to small to counter them. Other countries were not capable to build new ones.

Also, it wasn't a boom time for aircraft carriers either. Saipan and Midway class started their construction during WW2 and don't really count. After all the last British battleship was commissioned in 1946

The first American post war aircraft carriers were commissioned in 1955 because jet aircrafts required larger aircraft carriers. Why would USA want new battleship in 1950s? They had enough.

You also aren't addressing his comparison between carriers and battleships

Because they fill different roles and it is a reason why they coexisted. Aircraft carriers are a long arm for the force projection but when they meet battleships unescorted they die. This is true for modern time but instead of battleships task forces of small vessels are used.