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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
- 17 (16%)
Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 599928 times)

Khan Boyzitbig

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2017, 05:59:56 pm »

Destroyer is more effective with RADAR installed on the ship. Reckon we would need a lot of other things to make a good destroyer but either way we need both early to minimise our weaknesses and boost our strengths.
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Powder Miner

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2017, 06:02:30 pm »

Having no navy limits us ridiculously offensively and puts us at a disadvantage defensively as well. Spending multiple turns to strengthen our already good defense rather than bothering to actually establish a basic offense is not a good idea.
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Baffler

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2017, 06:02:47 pm »

I still feel a ship is the way to go. RADAR is gonna take more than one turn, for sure, and we can't allow the Cannalans to have their way with the entire naval theater. Their ships aren't fantastic. They're well-armored, but they're pretty undergunned and their powerplants aren't that impressive. If we build a light cruiser or destroyer with a good diesel engine, and use our mechanical computer experience to give it fire control, we'll have a good early in as long as we roll well. And they don't have RADAR either, so it's not like we're behind in detection techniques if we wait on it.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 06:05:26 pm by Baffler »
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2017, 06:02:54 pm »

Developing ship after radar - radar is installed on ships
Developing radar after ship - radar requires revision to be installed on ships


Here's a thought; let's shelve this discussion until after the first battle phase

Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2017, 06:44:26 pm »

I still feel a ship is the way to go. RADAR is gonna take more than one turn, for sure, and we can't allow the Cannalans to have their way with the entire naval theater. Their ships aren't fantastic. They're well-armored, but they're pretty undergunned and their powerplants aren't that impressive. If we build a light cruiser or destroyer with a good diesel engine, and use our mechanical computer experience to give it fire control, we'll have a good early in as long as we roll well. And they don't have RADAR either, so it's not like we're behind in detection techniques if we wait on it.

Doubt it.  Chain home had a demonstration of the concept in February of '35, a prototype in June of the same year, basic development had 160km ranged models by December of still the same year, and production models were made over '36.  It didn't have range finding by that point, but that basic form has been done since the previous war ended.  Given the Battle of the Embassy showed that prototypes and the such are done in the background and we've been able to work on designs with multi-year old technology before, I would be surprised if we don't get a pretty good example of the tech done on the first turn.
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Baffler

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2017, 08:28:11 pm »

That doesn't change the fact that putting off destroyers until later gives the enemy the complete run of an entire theater of the war for at least one turn. We can still get the edge in detection by fitting it with SONAR (which was developed in 1917) or radio detection equipment (like, a directional antenna) that will pick up the signals from their ships' radios; and replace that system once we've got a working version of the RADAR that's actually small enough to be useful mounted on a ship.
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
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Happerry

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2017, 08:57:37 pm »

Developing ship after radar - radar is installed on ships
Developing radar after ship - radar requires revision to be installed on ships


Here's a thought; let's shelve this discussion until after the first battle phase
This makes sense to me. No point planning ahead until we know how much we actually need the boat.

And since I haven't done a flag vote yet, here's mine.
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Stars and Swords (red/blue version): [5+2] Zanzetkuken, stabbymcstabstab, S34N1C, Light forger, 3_14159, Happerry
In the event of a tie: [2] Taricus, Khan Boyzitbig

Captain America Shield (or some other name): [1] Powder Miner

AOOKFTTRTN: [3+1] GUNINANRUNIN, Baffler, evictedSaint
AOOKFTTRTN (unless there's a tie): Taricus

Revised Forenian Jack: [1] Azzuro
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Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2017, 11:49:50 pm »

I don't really have an opinion on whether we should do destroyer or radar first.

But I will say from the previous page's discussion that we shouldn't go in too far for big guns. If we're truly focusing on a carrier-centric doctrine from the get-go, then naval guns can be substituted with carrier bombing sorties in the shore bombardment role. If we want guns for coastal defence batteries, best to design them for that role specifically so they can be even bigger without the need to be ship-mounted.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2017, 12:38:43 am »

The purpose of a Destroyer is mainly anti-air, with a minor role in ship-killing.  They're essentially body guards for the carrier.

NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2017, 02:19:10 am »

So, to clarify, we cannot shelve this discussion until after the first battle report, as we are talking about our first (non-bonus) design.

So, as I see it, it doesn't matter that much which we develop first, radar or a destroyer. I think either way we're gonna get rekt at sea for the first few turns, and there is little we can do about that. However, it was pointed out that with our superior radio tech, our destroyers would be able to find/avoid enemy ships by listening in on their communications, so having radar on them is not as important.
Thus, on the basis that our air-superiority is pretty safe at least on turn one, I guess we may as well try to stem the bleeding at sea a little bit. Again, not a huge deal, but I see the destroyer as being marginally more useful one turn earlier.

We aren't at the point where we should be voting on designs for turn one yet, but just for reference, here are my suggestions for a destroyer/radar:



Alternately:

EDIT: Also, a reminder that all these designs (and more) are available in our secret design files (non-public google doc). The link is available in the Discord (look in the pinned messages in our channel), or you can get it by sending me a PM.
We're just being a bit paranoid. You can trust pirates, right?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 11:04:59 am by NUKE9.13 »
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S34N1C

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2017, 07:06:57 am »

I'm in favor of developing radar first because if we do it after the ships, it will take a whole revision to put the radar on the ships.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #101 on: May 01, 2017, 07:26:38 am »

I'm in favor of developing radar first because if we do it after the ships, it will take a whole revision to put the radar on the ships.
Actually, Sensei has said that, so long as it doesn't require a major structural overhaul, we could add radar for free.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2017, 07:30:43 am »

I'm in favor of developing radar first because if we do it after the ships, it will take a whole revision to put the radar on the ships.
Actually, Sensei has said that, so long as it doesn't require a major structural overhaul, we could add radar for free.

Thing is, we have no idea if it would require structural overhauls or not.  Given the size of early radars, I figure it probably would.
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Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #103 on: May 01, 2017, 07:40:17 am »

I'm in favor of developing radar first because if we do it after the ships, it will take a whole revision to put the radar on the ships.
Actually, Sensei has said that, so long as it doesn't require a major structural overhaul, we could add radar for free.

If that's the case I don't see how the order we do it matters. Let's assume, realistically the first radars we design aren't going to be ship-mountable. So it's between:

Design radar > too big to fit > revise miniaturised radars > design destroyer with radar incorporated.

Design destroyer w/o radar > design radar > too big to fit > revise miniaturised radars for ship mounting

Both need 2 designs and a revision. I'm voting for designing the destroyer first, to minimise the havoc they can wreck within our shipping lanes. If we're voting already, that is.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1938 (Pre-Game)
« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2017, 07:53:41 am »

Also, for those arguing that we wouldn't be able to use our first-turn revision on radar- we have plenty of other important things to revise. Most notably, a thing someone (foolishly) pointed out to Sensei: we have no purpose-built bombs. Our planes are dropping artillery shells and loose explosives. We could really benefit by spending a revision to devise some proper ordnance.
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