Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[anewaname]

Right now, the overseer can choose any door on the map and lock it, without a dwarf with keys needing to run over to that door to do the equivilent of "insert key and lock door". If one goes into the specifics of "each dwarf can have keys to different doors" and "doors can be barred", overseer control over the locking of those doors could(should) be completely transferred into the hands of the dwarfs, just like the pulling of levers.

If one goes down this path,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the building of a door (including hatches) could include adding as many combinations of Direction/Bar and Direction/Lockset as desired (where a Lockset indicates a lock that can be opened by particular keys and dwarfs assigned to that Lockset would equip themselves with keys for it).(staying away from the ideas of master keys and the noble title "Keymaster of the Fort" and hidden members of the Lockset group who have stolen keys). The list of "directions" available could include "Inside" and "Outside" for use with doors that are part of a room(locking from the Outside would be require some tile adjacent to the door that is not a part of the room's zone). Once the door is built, if the overseer wants this door barred or locked from a direction, they 'q' the door and toggle the Y/N for one or more of the combinations they added when building the door. Then a dwarf is assigned to bar or lock the door (of course the dwarf needs to be able to move to the required side of the door and if a Lockset is involved, they need to be equipped with the key). Now for those dwarfs that choose to lock or bar the door without an overseer request... An unhappy or insecure dwarf might choose to lock and bar those "Inside" directions if they own the room (tough on the spouse or the neighbor who "shares" that door). Insane dwarfs... they will do things too! For all creatures, pathing would be blocked the same way as currently locked doors block pathing. There might need to be a check for invaders so they could unbar a door that was barred from the side they approach from.

So now, the overseer can set up a Lockset group called "DormDoors" and a one-use macro to build 20 doors, each with Inside/Bar and Outside/Lock/DormDoors, and dwarfs can bar themselves inside or be locked in by other dwarfs. Other doors would not be as easy to macro and would require more planning during the building of the door.

But, that is all complicated. In Earth's equivalent tech timeframe, barring doors was common and effective, and keys were rare. I simply would like the system of door locking to involve a dwarf, so the overseer would 'q' the door and specify the direction for this bar/lock action, and a job would be created where a dwarf would move to that side of the door and lock it, with the presumption the dwarf is barring the door. If a dwarf is unhappy or afraid, they would bar the doors in rooms they own. The vampires would not be able to path to them, but likely would find some other, dumber braver dwarf to feed on.

[GoblinCookie]

But, that is all complicated. In Earth's equivalent tech timeframe, barring doors was common and effective, and keys were rare. I simply would like the system of door locking to involve a dwarf, so the overseer would 'q' the door and specify the direction for this bar/lock action, and a job would be created where a dwarf would move to that side of the door and lock it, with the presumption the dwarf is barring the door. If a dwarf is unhappy or afraid, they would bar the doors in rooms they own. The vampires would not be able to path to them, but likely would find some other, dumber braver dwarf to feed on.

By default the dwarves ought to just 'jam' the doors of any rooms they own and are in, this would work to keep outsiders, also they should jam common doors if the player or AI orders it.  Locks should have to be fitted on existing doors manually or as a requirement to build special locked doors.  Locks should require keys, the advantage of keys over mere jamming is that it allows folks to lock a room when they are away as opposed to merely being able to keep folks out when they are inside a room and don't want visitors. 

All locks are made to use three keys, the civilization master key, the site master key and a personal key, however only privately assigned rooms use the latter.  Blank keys are made (and traded) as ordinery objects, however they do not do anything until they are formatted.  This is done by a position with the new [KEY_HOLDER] token (all the vanilla positions), these positions always ensure they have one master key for the level at which the operate, formatting blank keys at a craftsdwarf's workshop and carrying it with them.  It might be a good idea for Toady One to train the AI to consider retrieving any nearby lost master keys a top priority. 

Private keys work somewhat differently.  A lock is given a random number string when it is made (or generated on onload) and the dwarf who claims the room will take an existing blank key from the stockpile and head to a position holder with the [KEY_MAKER] token.  This results in that position holder formatting a key to that particular random number string, which the room holder would then carry about with them.  In AI sites the keys are simply generated for the locks that are also generated, at the same time and placed in the hands of the rooms generated owner, however should they lose their keys they can do the exact same thing as they do in fortress mode to get new keys.  It might be a good idea to make it possible to assign ordinary folks to be key-makers to stop very large fortresses position holders being constantly badgered by key requests.

[Batgirl1]

A compromise, then:

1. Regular Door (default)
2. Latch-Door (Cost: 1 Mech)
3. Lock-Door (Cost: 1 Mech, 1 unassigned key item made at forge)

[MrWiggles]

I really dont think private domiciles had locks c14th century. Locks were very expensive contraptions until the industrial revolution. So locks, and safeboxes were very valuable or the rich.  It also sounds like this thread is assuming, a modern size lock, which wasnt invented until the 19th century. Mostly locks were very bulky heavy things, which equally bulky keys.

[Thisfox]

Locks and keys would end in tears, is my prediction. 404 Bug: Key Lost would be an issue constantly otherwise. Personally I think it should look like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

which seems much more period-appropriate.

[Putnam]

not to mention the horrific issues involved in each individual unit having a path map instead of the map having one, which would cause the pathfinding algorithm to requires, oh, n times the amount of time to work, where n is the number of citizens in the fort.

that's pretty bad.

[Batgirl1]

not to mention the horrific issues involved in each individual unit having a path map instead of the map having one, which would cause the pathfinding algorithm to requires, oh, n times the amount of time to work, where n is the number of citizens in the fort.

that's pretty bad.

Good point.

As for locks being large padlocks, that is also a good point.  A revision, then:

1. Bar: Costs 1 bar or log, added to installed door (like mechanical connections already are), deconsructed when door is removed, allows forbidding, grants some resistance against invaders

2. Lock: Costs 1 metal bar, made at forge, added to installed door (or coffer? Etc?) like above. Offers greater resistance against invaders, limited by material strength and crafting quality

Edit: OR:

2. Lock (see above), allows owner of room to set door as forbidden if frightened.  Unlocks when no longer afraid.

[GoblinCookie]

I really dont think private domiciles had locks c14th century. Locks were very expensive contraptions until the industrial revolution. So locks, and safeboxes were very valuable or the rich.  It also sounds like this thread is assuming, a modern size lock, which wasnt invented until the 19th century. Mostly locks were very bulky heavy things, which equally bulky keys.

That does not really matter that much because we are not dealing with the actual historical situation, it also does not really matter much how heavy the locks are since they are fitted into the doors, the keys are just going to have to be heavier than coins, which is about how heavy modern coins are which is fine.  The overall situation with locks is basically along the lines of the scarcity of things in general, which basically does not exist except when we are dealing with a newbie player.  Once most of our dwarves labour is involved as it logically would be given the tech level in growing food, preparing food and cleaning the fortress, plus maintenance then manufactured goods necessarily become scarcer partly because we have less labour available to make them, plus they need metal which should realistically take longer to extract without quantum picks. 

At that point, rather than simply senselessly installing the scarce locks we have on the personal bedrooms of the rich or important, it makes more sense in context to have a fortress built in sections each of them guarded by a locked door.  The inhabitants of the rooms in the section would wish to have their own keys obviously to allow them to open any door blocking access between the map edge and their own room. 

[MrWiggles]

The 14th century thing is brought up, as thats the rough time period of European development that the Brothers Tarn wants to keep Dwarf Fortress at. So its worth some consideration. If dorfs are capable of modern size, tumbler locks, then that would mean they're capable of that level of refinement everywhere, which suggest a lot more then just locks.

[GoblinCookie]

The 14th century thing is brought up, as thats the rough time period of European development that the Brothers Tarn wants to keep Dwarf Fortress at. So its worth some consideration. If dorfs are capable of modern size, tumbler locks, then that would mean they're capable of that level of refinement everywhere, which suggest a lot more then just locks.

Nope.

The capacity does not (necessarily) exist in some kind of kind of nebulous intellectual realm.  If dwarves are sufficiently motivated to have something they will have something, regardless of whether they should have that thing based upon the general knowledge.  This may lead to an increase in general knowledge but it does not necessarily follow they will apply that knowledge to any particular application beyond locks. 

You are also talking as though development exists in some kind of abstract realm, since dwarves do not live as humans live they do not have any comparable stage of development since the holistic nature of the situation is that dwarves will be far more advanced in some techs (mining, garbage disposal, recycling) but far less advanced in other techs than European humans were even if they are at a comparable level of theoretical understanding.

[MrWiggles]

Then take up with Brothers Tarn, as when they discussed what technology limits they want for DF, they've universally applied 14th century europe, to elves, to humans, to dorfs, to goblins ect.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Having a 14th century tech cutoff makes a lot of sense. Judging from what we've seen so far of the knowledge system, it seems that, just as Mr Wiggles said, when it's in place, locks would not be developed in a vacuum, but all the concepts leading up to their construction would be discussed and developed by dorf (and other) scholars which would make a lot more advanced tech theoretically available.

Without the cutoff to indicate when scholars should slow down and eventually stop, Tarn could fall into a techy mood and you'd end up (in several years) with being able to generate 5000 year old worlds where dorfs and goblins can just nuke each other.

When the whole thing becomes moddable it'll be quite nice. Limit tech to 5th century, generate a low-tech world. Add a bunch of advanced tech yourself and set the limit to 18th century for blunderbuss Fun. And you'd never be too sure just how advanced each civ is going to be until the world is created.

[anewaname]

The capacity does not (necessarily) exist in some kind of kind of nebulous intellectual realm.  If dwarves are sufficiently motivated to have something they will have something, regardless of whether they should have that thing based upon the general knowledge.

In the current game mechanics, any dwarf assigned to produce an lock out of some smelted metal will be able to do so (his motivation allows him to succeed regardless of knowledge and ability, and he cannot fail).

This may lead to an increase in general knowledge but it does not necessarily follow they will apply that knowledge to any particular application beyond locks.

In the current game mechanics, the time required and the product quality are based on the dwarf's skill with that type of work, so a dwarf that is a legendary weaponsmith, armorsmith, and metalcrafter, cannot apply knowledge from those skills towards fashioning a lock.

I suspect that the dwarfs in DF always succeed in building something out of their efforts, not due to their heroic motivation, but due to the simplification of the "that didn't work, trying it again" process.

[GoblinCookie]

Then take up with Brothers Tarn, as when they discussed what technology limits they want for DF, they've universally applied 14th century europe, to elves, to humans, to dorfs, to goblins ect.

This is the suggestions forum MrWiggles, so of course I am taking it up with the Adams Brothers (it isn't the Brothers Tanrn).   

The DF world is for the most part far more primitive than 14th Century Europe, indeed essentially it is mostly a bronze-age society since only dwarves actually know how to make steel, which puts them alone in the iron age.  We are hence talking more -500BC rather than 1300AD, so the cutoff does not really matter as far as the tech discrepancies, I also did not really suggest that locks should ever be more advanced than the 14th Century ones.  What I was saying rather is that the availability of locks and such cannot really be ascertained by transposing the presumed 14th Century situation onto the game because so many things (like the whole lifestyle) are different that it does not follow that they will not end up being more plentiful or scarcer than they were historically.

The capacity does not (necessarily) exist in some kind of kind of nebulous intellectual realm.  If dwarves are sufficiently motivated to have something they will have something, regardless of whether they should have that thing based upon the general knowledge.

In the current game mechanics, any dwarf assigned to produce an lock out of some smelted metal will be able to do so (his motivation allows him to succeed regardless of knowledge and ability, and he cannot fail).

This may lead to an increase in general knowledge but it does not necessarily follow they will apply that knowledge to any particular application beyond locks.

In the current game mechanics, the time required and the product quality are based on the dwarf's skill with that type of work, so a dwarf that is a legendary weaponsmith, armorsmith, and metalcrafter, cannot apply knowledge from those skills towards fashioning a lock.

I suspect that the dwarfs in DF always succeed in building something out of their efforts, not due to their heroic motivation, but due to the simplification of the "that didn't work, trying it again" process.

I have been rather misunderstood.  I am not talking about the capacities of the individual dwarf, I am talking about the efficiency of the whole's entities locksmithing reactions.  Because of the overall societal situation being so different in regards to how dwarves live the tech level is going to be skewed so that some techs are far more advanced than others, that in turn effects a whole raft of factors which determine availability of the locks, that is what I was talking about rather than how advanced they are *as* locks.

[anewaname]

Then take up with Brothers Tarn, as when they discussed what technology limits they want for DF, they've universally applied 14th century europe, to elves, to humans, to dorfs, to goblins ect.

This is the suggestions forum MrWiggles, so of course I am taking it up with the Adams Brothers (it isn't the Brothers Tanrn).   

The DF world is for the most part far more primitive than 14th Century Europe, indeed essentially it is mostly a bronze-age society since only dwarves actually know how to make steel, which puts them alone in the iron age.  We are hence talking more -500BC rather than 1300AD, so the cutoff does not really matter as far as the tech discrepancies, I also did not really suggest that locks should ever be more advanced than the 14th Century ones.  What I was saying rather is that the availability of locks and such cannot really be ascertained by transposing the presumed 14th Century situation onto the game because so many things (like the whole lifestyle) are different that it does not follow that they will not end up being more plentiful or scarcer than they were historically.

The capacity does not (necessarily) exist in some kind of kind of nebulous intellectual realm.  If dwarves are sufficiently motivated to have something they will have something, regardless of whether they should have that thing based upon the general knowledge.

In the current game mechanics, any dwarf assigned to produce an lock out of some smelted metal will be able to do so (his motivation allows him to succeed regardless of knowledge and ability, and he cannot fail).

This may lead to an increase in general knowledge but it does not necessarily follow they will apply that knowledge to any particular application beyond locks.

In the current game mechanics, the time required and the product quality are based on the dwarf's skill with that type of work, so a dwarf that is a legendary weaponsmith, armorsmith, and metalcrafter, cannot apply knowledge from those skills towards fashioning a lock.

I suspect that the dwarfs in DF always succeed in building something out of their efforts, not due to their heroic motivation, but due to the simplification of the "that didn't work, trying it again" process.

I have been rather misunderstood.  I am not talking about the capacities of the individual dwarf, I am talking about the efficiency of the whole's entities locksmithing reactions.  Because of the overall societal situation being so different in regards to how dwarves live the tech level is going to be skewed so that some techs are far more advanced than others, that in turn effects a whole raft of factors which determine availability of the locks, that is what I was talking about rather than how advanced they are *as* locks.

I can see that. The locks produced by humans would be simpler and heavier, even if built of the same quality of material. The dwarfs could produce better locks out of comparable material, and create them for a larger variety of uses.