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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 393887 times)

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2310 on: May 12, 2017, 03:30:44 pm »

Can someone give me a reply on why we're not countering their use of wind? Plez
Because nobody wants to vote for the pillar of unmagic...

If you have a better proposal then please, be my guest.

As for why we are not countering lucky strike, that would be bcause nobody wants to vote for antiluck charms, or the pillar of unmagic... Again, if you have a better proposal...

Also, please change away from the falcons. It is the wrong design stream, it is backing us out into life, a very fundamental vein that will be difficult to pull off and be a long time coming with tangible benefits. A healing spell would be super-nice but limited to battlefields we mostly win. Mutant soldiers would also be nice, but difficult to get dramatic impriovements. Permanent conjuration, on the other hand, meshes brilliantly with our pre-existing technologies.

It is also the wrong bird, they lack altitude and are not dangerous enough, and definitely not resilient enough. If we are going the animal route we need a proper monster, not just a big bird. Life magic is bad at proper mnonsters, conjuration is good at proper monsters... That is why my proposal for vultures is no more difficult that the falcon proposal, becuase it works to our strengths in conjuration, modifying conjured animals, combining conjured anmials with thermal effects... Okay mixing in crystals is a bit of a stretch, but it is a monster, it is supposed to have quirks! What sort of fantasy world doesn't at least have flame-breath that makes no physical sense? And crystals and animals are both conjuration, the crystal spell is derived from our conjuration spells, and wasps are the only properly solid one we had, and carapace and wasp-nests both have similarities to crystals, while I really don't know much about webs... So combining crystals with summoned animals is probably not that odd...

And then again, finding, catching, breeding, and training wild falcons is difficult. Summoning new monsters and using our experience with horses on the some-what blank-slate but probably-hostile-because-monster newly summoned beasties is actually much more plausible. They were summoned by us, "obey your creator" has never gone poorly for anyone, and they don't have a preexisting culture with which to resist us. And by summoning them we just have to spot one once, not go out and raid their nests...
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2311 on: May 12, 2017, 03:58:07 pm »

The way I see it, Falcons are both life magic and conjuration. And have you looked at your proposal, RAM? You basically want to mass produce giant Wolverine birds when our experience is limited to conjuring fire bugs.

And the pillar of unmagic is also insanely over-ambitious. Right now we can make Very Expensive charms that block out all magic in a very small range. You want to go from that to a giant tower that affects an entire theatre and selectively blocks out one spell?
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Generally me

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2312 on: May 12, 2017, 04:19:47 pm »

I know this probably isn't the time to introduce new forms of magic but I think creating mages that can individually manipulate heat might be a good. It already has a basis in the frost tower and fireball, it will also be able to if not manipulate, at least mess up their use of wind through hot and cold messing with pressure. Then it also has general combat capabilities as well as utility, like being able to sense temperature, allowing mages to spot ambushes very easily even in the dead of night.

Also thanks for the explanation Cheifwaffle.
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2313 on: May 12, 2017, 05:04:49 pm »

Wind towers:
We have notice that the air behaves rather strangely around our forever frost towers. It also behaves strangely around our fire walls. It seems to move 'up' when hot and 'down' when cold. After somemathemagical analysis, we have conjectured that, on a very large scale, this seems to rather explain much of our historic weather patterns, considering the cold mountains and tundra and the warmer climes elsewhere. In short, we create an inverted, and redirected, forever frost tower. Instead of generating cold around where it is, it generates heat around a point very high above itself. This is then paired with a forever frost tower. After the prototype was deployed and we witnessed what happens when you put a 100 kilometre radius of sweltering air above a 100 kilometre radius of freezing air, we added a great deal of metal reinforcement to both towers...
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2314 on: May 12, 2017, 05:15:24 pm »

While the idea of using heat to manipulate air pressure and thus wind is sound, creating what effectively amounts to a Heat Tower to produce wind in conjunction with the Frost Tower seems like a bad idea. Unless we get a 6 on effectiveness on bugs (and even then) the Heat Tower would most certainly cancel out some part of the Frost Tower, making it even worse.
I may not think upgrading the Frost Tower is a viable option, but making it even worse isn't exactly a good idea.

@Generally me: Good base idea, but the wind manipulation part seems like a side-effect and thus small-scale.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2315 on: May 12, 2017, 06:01:34 pm »

My thought is that the sheer scale of the effect results in fare more wind than the battlefield has seen before. And it would cancel ourt the frozever frost to some extent, but it would flow through the forever frost and thus be cooled down a category, or more if we intensify it. It is just flipping it to hot(it was derived from hot) and projecting it to a distance(the hard part, but it is a whole magical construct, the scaling-up should give it a lot of range even if the effect would not have so much range otherwise. And it is an immobile strainght-line projection, which should help.) so it ought to be able to pretty much produce an inverted effect, of +2 heat categories, but we could give up 1 category and still get a three-category difference. And I am pretty sure that the towers affects an extremely large radius directly, rather than just constantly generating zero-kelvin and letting it spread of its own accord. So basically, the air above it continuosly rises, to the strength of raising a region by a heat category, and then flows through a very large region that continuously freezes it, with enough strength to drop two heat categories over an entire region. So, at worst, we will lose a heat category, but we are losing that anyway, and in exchange we get apocalyptic wind generation. I mean, we are probably talking about roughly a dozen digit's worth of volume here, all being constantly heated or cooled to a dramatic extent. This ought to be enough to reidrect all winds in the theatre to "away" up to a practical altitude, and the carpets the enemy delpoy would be sucked in, dragged down, and promplty splatted. And this all plays to our existing strengths of thermal manipulation and steam understanding. We are basically making a giant motor out of the atmosphere.
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2316 on: May 12, 2017, 08:02:48 pm »

Future Design: AS-HMW1 "Walker"
Arstotzkan Hybrid Mechanized Walker 1 "Walker"

Our troops tend to not do well on the fields. Improvements over the years to Moskurg weaponry makes them formidable foes, and a single troop goes down too easily. We at the Academy have mulled over the possibilities of doing things like giving our troops crystal plated armor or better weapons, but really, what's the point? It's just throwing rocks against Moskurger wind magic.
So Moskurg this project has come up with a new design: The AS-HMW1 Walker. The core idea is, of course, simple: We put our knowledge of steam power and magic storage to the test in order to create a large mechanized soldier that can dominate the battlefield.

We start with the first issue: Movement.
Movement is required to actually make something that isn't a fancy (but of superior Arstotzkan craftsmanship of course) statue. Joints are carefully created and connected to our steam engine via primarily gears and axles. However, there's another mechanism we have called "hydraulics" used in rare spots across the design due to its complexity. The hydraulics operate off of steam from the internal steam engine. Circuits are carefully engrained across the machine from the area designed for the human occupant to allow for control.

The Walker is only able to be controlled by mages thanks to the requirement for the user to be able to interact with the control circuits. The mage spends most of their attention on the battlefield and operating the Walker, and only a marginal amount of their magic is devoted towards running it.

The entire contraption is powered by a series of Magegems. While the user does have to be a mage in order to control it, the Walker simply cannot be powered by the will of one mage alone. The mage, as previously established, primarily operates the circuits, while the Magegems power the steam engine and other devices. The magegems should last relatively long period times in combat - more than enough for an engagement. Typically a number of mages recharge the Walker when not in battle to expedite the recharging process, but in emergency situations or on the field one mage can still charge the Magegems. It just may take a bit longer.
In the rare circumstance of a Walker losing power in combat, the mage typically departs and either recharges their Walker to last for a couple more minutes or continues the engagement on foot before returning to the walker for a full recharge.

The whole thing is quite large - roughly twice the size of a regular man. The controlling mage is strapped to the torso of the contraption (to avoid a few gruesome joint-related accidents we experienced in testing) and controls it from there.

The majority of the walker takes advantage of our plentiful metal. The metal makes up the structure, frame, and other essential parts of the Walker. Crystal plating is then added to the final product. A coat of transparent crystal (something which should be easily accomplished given our knowledge of crystal) is then placed over the occupant's location. As a result, the Walker is completely invulnerable to fire. It's also theorized that perhaps the Walker could even take a direct hit from a ballista bolt without breaking down, though any more damage would probably mean the end of the Walker even if it could survive a bolt.
In terms of infantry, firebombs, and arrows, the Walker is nearly invulnerable to anything but a direct coordinated infantry attack.

In terms of weapons, the Walker is given a large scaled-up broadsword attached to the right "hand" and something vaguely resembling a fist for the other. We wanted to have the left "hand" actually work as a hand with working fingers and whatnots, but it just so happens to turn out that doing that would be really hard. The Walker's main weapon is terror. Just seeing a Walker enter the battle should terrify the coward Moskurgers and strike fear into their hearts.

We don't expect this to be an easy project. Revisions and perhaps new designs will be necessary. This design is intended to provide a base to be able to use to create something usable with at least one if not more revisions. But something usable would always be nice.

-Crystal plating
-Fire invulnerability
-Shielded cockpit

TL;DR:
A very primitive mech. The design is meant to be initially done in an action as almost a "prerequisite"/"theory" design. We'd probably have to get all 6's for this to be useful enough on the battlefield in one design, but with maybe 1-2 designs/revisions, the Walker could be a fearsome part of our arsenal. It takes time to make, but it's worth it.
It's roughly the height of two men and the rest is scaled up proportionally. It carries (by which I mean has attached to it) a giant broadsword and "fist", but should be great at terror. It's mostly made out of metal (and shouldn't break down if crystal disappears) but has crystal armoring. The pilot of the thing is strapped to the center torso and is covered by transparent crystal plating. The Walker should be invulnerable to fire bombs and extremely useful against arrows and infantry. Hopefully it can tank a near-hit from a bolt, but its primary weakness would be artillery.
It uses magegems to operate its internal steam engine and other devices, though it needs a mage to control it.

TL;DR TL;DR: Basically the primitive first heavy armor of Wands Race.

Why?
You know why.

How?
It definitely needs Magegems done first, and maybe a miniaturization revision to the steam engine. The first iteration will primarily be a proof of concept. After this design is done, we can address the problems in future designs/revisions and get something well worth the actions spent.
Really, the only actual new technology is the joints and basic hydraulics, but I mean, it is basic hydraulics and this is a primitive mech, so one design probably isn't going to make the envisioned product at first.

Prerequisites
- Magegems (100% definitely need this. Well, we could have it require a support team of mages behind it at all times, but that's disadvantageous.)
- Crystalworks (Would really help. Evicted did say we're practically at manufacturing limits without a dedicated facility, and permanent better crystal would help this design. Not essential, but would definitely be helpful.)
- Better steam engine? (Maybe. Might just be better to make Crystalclads and improve steam engines a bit in there then use that experience. Otherwise, maybe a revision in something like engine miniaturization.)



I actually seriously think this is a good idea to do in the near future. Why near future? Because no matter what stuff we develop beforehand, this design will take multiple actions to get working. But when we do get it working, it'll be worth it. Yes, it is overambitious, but that's the point. We do something like this, then maybe spend a design and revision to fix it up.
If we do do it, we should do so quickly. I'm nearly positive that in order for it to not be a National Effort, it has to take advantage of the mountain metals and we don't know how long we can keep that.

Hell, I'd be okay with going Magegem -> Walker, starting with Magegem this turn. I want to start making new things!

And on a side note, some future improvements: AN INTEGRATED CANNON. The ability to cast fireball. Crystal weapons. The improvements coming with Crystalworks. And more.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Roboson

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2317 on: May 12, 2017, 08:25:12 pm »

Uhhh did anyone else notice we cant use cannons on magic carpets as the cannons can only fire up to 45 degree angles? Not sure if that was discussed in the combat report or elsewhere, but I remember reading that on one of our design reports.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2318 on: May 12, 2017, 08:28:42 pm »

Yeah, I thought about that as soon as I saw the combat phase.
That's one of the aspects of the HC3 - Note how I included a swivel mount as well as the greatly improved fire rate to the design.

Besides, our cannons are artillery after all. Without that greater rate of fire and with such large projectiles, it's not exactly practical for the HA1 or HC1-E to even bother trying to fire on flying units, even when possible.



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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2319 on: May 12, 2017, 08:41:45 pm »

Prerequisites
- Magegems (100% definitely need this. Well, we could have it require a support team of mages behind it at all times, but that's disadvantageous.)
- Crystalworks (Would really help. Evicted did say we're practically at manufacturing limits without a dedicated facility, and permanent better crystal would help this design. Not essential, but would definitely be helpful.)
- Better steam engine? (Maybe. Might just be better to make Crystalclads and improve steam engines a bit in there then use that experience. Otherwise, maybe a revision in something like engine miniaturization.)
Another pre-requisite would be anti-magic resistance, otherwise they'd fall apart as soon as anti-magic is applied to them.

Speaking of anti-magic, perhaps we should design a Dispel spell? We have experience in anti-magic and this would be a fairly effective way of doing stuff like removing their wind magic from play. Perhaps we can use our anti-magic charms as a necessary component of the spell to make it easier?

Glory to Arstotzka.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2320 on: May 12, 2017, 08:50:43 pm »

I mean, it wouldn't fall apart. It'd just force the pilot to disembark. Which still isn't great, but better.

So the current "best way" I see:
Magegem -> Antimagic Resistance -> Walker -> Crystalworks.
Magegem is just something that we should have and I really want. It also can serve as a base for antimagic resistance. Since we know that Moskurg antimagic is religious-based, couldn't we revise the Magegems or do something similar to basically ignore their antimagic?

And I still kind of want Walkers regardless of anti-magic. Since all their troops won't be fighting within anti-magic range, and even at anti-magic range they won't always have anti-magic mages available.
My main problem with just flat-out antimagic resistance is that it would inspire Moskurg to do the same to our antimagic. It'd probably be better if I baked it into the design.

I'm going to add a (duplicate, because I lack morals) vote to Magegems, actually. If enough people switch their vote to Magegems over Giant Falcons, I'd likely remove my Giant Falcons vote as well. I just want to get Magegems over with. I already have high confidence in Flare as a revision this turn, anyways. And I said, now's the time for designs that won't be immediately useful.
Quote
Designs
2.5 - Improved Frost Towers: Andres, 10ebbor10 RAM.5
1? Dragon Micro-Cannons: Light Forger?
1 Magegems: Chiefwaffles
4 - Giant Falcons: Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Flare Wands: RAM
1.5 Homing Fireballs: RAM.5 voidslayer
I removed all the designs with 0 votes to avoid cluttering. If someone wants to re-add them, just take them from the votebox before me.

EDIT: And a Dispel could definitely work. Have a Mage "channel" far-away magic into an anti-magic charm. Could maybe even include selectiveness on the first design, but range would be priority.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 08:52:15 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Roboson

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2321 on: May 12, 2017, 09:05:44 pm »

On the dispel topic:

Anti-magic Staff
Using our knowledge of wand magic that we gained from reverse engineering the fireball wand and creating our dogwood wands, we craft anti-magic staffs (just larger wands). They are metal rods topped with an anti-magic crystal. The wand itself allows magic to be channeled through the wand into the crystal, which recalibrates the magic into antimagic. This creates a focusing effect, which releases anti-magic in a directional beam. The beam slices through magic and enchantments, thus destabilizing the spellwork and dispelling magical effects.

Edit: Also quick thought here. If their Greek fire is made with/of magic, shouldn't it not work when near our anti-magic crystals?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 09:07:43 pm by Roboson »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2322 on: May 12, 2017, 09:56:57 pm »

They said it was "brewed with magic". No idea what that means. If it doesn't care about antimagic, it's probably mundane but magic was just used in the creation of it.
Like as a tool, not an ingredient. I don't get why they'd even be able to do without penalties, but whatever.

And I like the Anti-Magic Staff.
Buut people should still vote for Magegems. Though preferably if the person is already voting for Giant Falcons they could make it a duplicate vote.

Because, my current personal priorities:
Magegems > Giant Falcons > Anti-magic Staff > Improved Frost Towers = Homing Fireballs
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Roboson

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2323 on: May 12, 2017, 10:11:02 pm »

What if:

Seperate Research Teams
After years of arguement two separate factions developed in our R&D team. Each group thought the other was going to lead us to our doom, and due to those irrevocable differences, the two factions split into seperate design teams. One remained in the capital, and the second set up a research base deep within the mountains. Now the two teams each create a design independently of each other and effectively put out two designs and revisions each year. However, after separation, neither group gains the research development bonuses gained from the other team. (So if one side figures out how to make cannons great, the other design team wouldn't gain any bonuses to their designs that came from that).

Evicted probably won't let something like that fly, but man, that would surely solve a lot of our issues (and double our output  :P )
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #2324 on: May 12, 2017, 10:13:53 pm »

If only. I've thought about that stuff and without a doubt anything giving us advantages in terms of design/revision actions is just too powerful considering the nature of design+revisions. It'd turn into "Exponential Action Race".

psst roboson. duplivote for magegems
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!
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