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[10ebbor10]

At arrow range, aren't they useless due to the range of their anti-magic?

Yes, but if you read the descriptions, our forces aren't quite getting to arrow range any more, and Moskurgian arrows were never that good.

Artillery on both sides is obliterating forces before that happens.

[Azzuro]

...

Design: Salt Strike
Whenever Moskurg projectiles approach our men, our mages shall conjure walls of salt to defend them, using naught but the sheer fury research mathemagicians have for the workings of the world. The Beyond Quality^TM Arstotzkan Salt is strong enough to withstand even ballista shots, and can be further recovered after the battle to sell overseas, making Arstotzka the number one salt exporter in the world!

GM, I expect to have +6 to all rolls as we have sufficiently demonstrated our expertise at creating salt.

[Chiefwaffles]

Yeah but they'd not be useful for infantry as you describe. And Crystal Canopy I believe doesn't have anything limiting it from being used on ships - It's "immobile" as described by VoidSlayer, but that just means our mages can't manipulate it to move with them. If it's summoned on a ship and standing on a ship, it won't be a problem.
Just going to do a pros/cons list for it vs Crystal Canopy.

Crystal Plates
+ Doesn't require mage on site to cast (still have to be summoned at some point though)
+ Doesn't have to be continuously maintained
+ Easy to mass-produce
+ Simpler to design (Conjecture, but reasoning is: Crystal plates is essentially just a different shape of crystal and we've already done plenty of that. Hell, this could probably be a revision, but I'd rather not rely on that.)
- Hard to fire through: Requires time to deassemble part for firing port, and if firing port is left in Lucky Shot can pass through.
- Not as strong (See Crystal Canopy for reasoning)
- Vulnerable to anti-magic
Crystal Canopy
+ Parts can be summoned and re-summoned to allow for easy firing through
+ Likely stronger (Conjecture, but reasoning is: Crystal plates have to be portable and relatively easy to assemble. Crystal canopy is summoned on site and therefore is one solid structure which can be much thicker + stronger.)
- Require a mage on site to summon & maintain
- Vulnerable to anti-magic


So far I'm thinking Anchored Crystal Plates (Like I said: It'd be more complicated to design, but the extremely simple nature of the base crystal plates should still balance it out to be easier than the other designs) would be the best idea. Barring that, any of the discussed ideas could also work except for the Tuneable Anti-magic charm for obvious reasons. So, without further ado...
Design: Anchored Crystal Plates

These big, crystal plates are simple to summon and can be created in large amounts. Special notches in the side can be used to click multiple plates together, allowing for the creation of larger objects out of multiple smaller plates. In the field, leather gambesons can be placed over the holes to prevent lucky strike arrows from going through the seems. Mass production allows the plates to be deployed in every situation. Rapid assembly of shelter, extra armor for fortified positions, defending boats against ballistae.

Similar to crystal canopy, but useable for infantry and naval as well.

In addition to the description of regular crystal plates, the crystal is "anchored" using techniques vaguely similar to a reverse application of anti-magic charm, except in a much more diluted form than the charms for cheaper production. The consequence of this is that the plates aren't susceptible to being dispelled by current enemy anti-magic, and ideally last longer.

Designs
1 - Disrupting Mist: Azzuro
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
1 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm : 10ebbor10
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
0 - Rifled Barrels:
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates

The above quote assumes Roboson and Light Forger are voting for their own proposed designs.


@Azzuro: No, you have it wrong. Clearly we need to export our salt for 10 expense credits.

[10ebbor10]

Barring that, any of the discussed ideas could also work except for the Tuneable Anti-magic charm for obvious reasons.

And why wouldn't it. What are these obvious reasons.

[Chiefwaffles]

The reasons I already stated before in the thread. Hence them being obvious.

[10ebbor10]

The reasons I already stated before in the thread. Hence them being obvious.

First of, that's rather egocentric of you, to say that because you think something, everybody must agree. I mean, you don't give the same treatment to the luck suggestion (which both you and I agreed is impractical), or to your own suggestion (which I argued to be impractical).  Secondly, your argument has no ground to stand upon.

All you said was that you thought it would be a national effort, based on no evidence whatsoever.

Your response to my counterargument rightfully pointing out the flaws in your argument (namely that your design was far more complex) was to shut down and start crying about me being unfair.

But anyway, I'll make another go at the argument, for the sake of others.

[10ebbor10]

We had 2 things that were national efforts. The Steam engine, and the Forever frost tower. Let's look at their rolls.

Design: Steam Engine [2-2, 1-2+1, 6-2]

Forever Frost:  [5-1, 2-2, 4-2]

So, in both cases there were terrible cost rolls involved. In the case of forever frost, we were implementing an entire new field of magic over an entire battlefield. In the case of the Steam Engine, we were running ahead of technology by several centuries. That justifies the -2 modifier.

In the case of the crystal, we're implementing already known tech in a single design, then restricting it's capabilities. 

Hardly comparable.

4 - Lucky Charms: Andres : New field of Magic
3 - Disrupting Mist: Complex changes with new tech and multiple functions
2.5 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Simple New design + new tech
2 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Complex changes to single design but with exsiting tech
2 - Anchored Crystal Weapons:   Moderate changes to multiple designs with new tech
2 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm  Multiple changes based on existing tech
2 - Crystal Canopy: New design with newish tech
1.5 - Crystal Plates : Simple New Design
1 - Rifled Barrels: Revision like changes
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Revision like changes

[Azzuro]

Alright, after rereading the last four pages of back-and-forth it's clear that both of you are getting nowhere. I believe that the unhappy compromise would be to vote for my design of Rifled Barrels, to improve our cannons' accuracy and range both.

Hear me out. The main criticism that both of you have against it is that it's too simple, better done in the revision phase. So what? We'll get +1s to doing it in the design phase then, bettering the result. And if you go back and reread the turn, both sides are actually evenly matched in terms of range, just that Moskurg accuracy is making the difference by allowing them to snipe. If we improve both our accuracy and range, we essentially render Moskurg ballistae obsolete, by sniping them at longer ranges than they're able to return fire. Lucky Strike is also bypassed (at least in the ballistae application) because it doesn't confer a range advantage. And we will have the range advantage if we pursue research in that area, as steam pressure>torsion springs!

I like your Mk2 Steam Cannon design for creativity, ebbor, but reliability isn't as great an issue as getting sniped is and fire-rate is not an issue at all, and the design seems to address only those.

Oh, and for a revision we should look into firing cannons downward, to drive them out of the mountains and regain the bonus to make Fog-O-War ships.

0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
1 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm : 10ebbor10
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
2 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger, Azzuro
0 - Rifled Barrels:
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates

I want to switch my vote to my own design of Rifled Barrels, but in the interest of preventing another zero-consensus situation, I'm switching my vote to Anchored Crystal Weapons. Permanent (aka fully mundane) Conjuration has been something we've been working towards since the very start of the game, so if we can't decide what to do may as well continue on it.

[10ebbor10]

Hear me out. The main criticism that both of you have against it is that it's too simple, better done in the revision phase. So what? We'll get +1s to doing it in the design phase then, bettering the result. And if you go back and reread the turn, both sides are actually evenly matched in terms of range, just that Moskurg accuracy is making the difference by allowing them to snipe. If we improve both our accuracy and range, we essentially render Moskurg ballistae obsolete, by sniping them at longer ranges than they're able to return fire. Lucky Strike is also bypassed (at least in the ballistae application) because it doesn't confer a range advantage. And we will have the range advantage if we pursue research in that area, as steam pressure>torsion springs!

Doing revisions in the design phase has it's downside. You can not get flaws or cost increases during revisions, but you can get them during design actions.

And the Moskurgians have Wind spells. They too may try to play the range game.

It'll be harder for them than for us, but they may try.

I like your Mk2 Steam Cannon design for creativity, ebbor, but reliability isn't as great an issue as getting sniped is and fire-rate is not an issue at all, and the design seems to address only those.

Yeah, it does.

It was intended to be combined with something like your proposal as a revision, to end up with a truly devastating weapon.

Oh, and for a revision we should look into firing cannons downward, to drive them out of the mountains and regain the bonus to make Fog-O-War ships.

I think long-range fireballs would be a better idea, actually. Fireballs helps us both in the mountains, in the Jungle, and at Sea, by setting their flammable wooden ships and wooden ballista and standard Moskurgians aflame.

Ideally, we'll do both.

I want to switch my vote to my own design of Rifled Barrels, but in the interest of preventing another zero-consensus situation, I'm switching my vote to Anchored Crystal Weapons. Permanent (aka fully mundane) Conjuration has been something we've been working towards since the very start of the game, so if we can't decide what to do may as well continue on it.

Please don't.

We really, really don't want to end up not solving our range disadvantage.

Crystal weaponry, while neat, is not going to help us when both sides ran away before reaching the other sides lines.

0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
2 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
2 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger, Azzuro
0 - Rifled Barrels:
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates

Not my favorite design, but I really don't want to repeat the Charge of the light brigade.

[stabbymcstabstab]

How about we add a canopy and a rifled barrel to the cannon? it's two simple things that would drastically improve it and as long as the canopy prevents the first volley from their artillery from killing our mages it'll pay for itself in counter battery fire.

[10ebbor10]

That'll make it more complex, I'm afraid.


Anyway, I'm willing to support the Longer Barrel thing, and will change my vote as long as other people do so too

[Azzuro]

0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
2 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
1 - Rifled Barrels: Azzuro
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates

Alright, changing my vote to Rifled Barrels. Shamelessness FTW!

You raise a good point about Moskurg wind spells giving them a way to play the range game, but I'm still confident that we will stay ahead with steam cannons. After all, in the real world we are still using steam power - in aircraft carriers as part of a steam catapult system to launch heavier fighter jets.

[10ebbor10]

0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
2 - Rifled Barrels: Azzuro, 10ebbor10
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates

[stabbymcstabstab]

0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
3 - Rifled Barrels: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Stabby
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates

[andrea]

I would have liked to design a ship and then use revisions on the cannon and steam engine... but I seem far too late for that. I will vote for the MK2 cannon, because I think that it is the best candidate for design, while rifling and longer range can wait. I will also point out that trying to make rifled rock balls is going to be a mess and disrupt our ammo supply greatly, so if we move to that we should use at least metal ammo.
If in the end rifled cannons win, please try to get metal balls out of them as well. It is a design, we can do a bit more than that.

0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
3 - Rifled Barrels: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea
0 - Crystal Plates

As for fancy ideas on how to protect from their bolts... why not go simple?

Siege shield This is an huge shield made of wood, thick enough to stop a ballista bolt and big enough to cover 2 or 3 people. while heavy, it is mounted on wheels to provide mobility. It is a solid block without slits , not giving any opportunity for the enemy projectiles to bypass them.