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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 386415 times)

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3060 on: June 10, 2017, 11:39:40 pm »

Quote
I know about lucky strike, but our problem is lightning which does not use lucky strike.
INB4 they revise lightning to use lucky strike.
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Science is Meta gaming IRL. Humans are cheating fucks.

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3061 on: June 11, 2017, 12:27:38 am »

The whole "detonating a fireball in an enclosed space" thing was a concern of mine also, and why i suggested a metal firing chamber. Apparently though, we are already doing so with the boilers, so it should be fine.
The boilers boil. We essencially use pressure cannons combined with combustion cannons. It is somewhere in between the two. And, of course, both are fundamentally pressure cannons, just with different attitudes to pressure generation. I absolutely agree tht it would be more powerful if we could do it, but I see no reason to believe that things havr improved that much since we were having issues with pressure cannons exploding. Ehh, regeneration is a big step, they won't develope progressive weakness, but still, it is a lot to ask to go from a boiler-sized combustion chamber to a gun-sized combustion chamber. I expect that we are already at the limit of what our materials can reliably withstand, so we will not gain any power without something exploding. Though I am willing to concedet hat I may have been a little overzealous at removing the steam. It is a big risk as we are gaining a lot from the large steam chamber, but it is not impossible that removing it might reduce power consumption with no appreciable downsides.
Also, we do not "summon the crystal over air" we replace/displace the air with crystal, attempting to summon crystal over steel would simply result in a crystal jacket. By definition, you can't form an alloy with crystal. Crystal is heavily reliant on structure, and an alloy is changing the structure.
We know that our wasps do not explode, so we know that some re/dis-placement occurs, but they do not expel unnatural gasses either. Therefore it stands to reason that the gasous content is what was there originally. The crystal is light because it has a low density, it should be possible to have a crystal grow around another material, even at the elemental level. Certainly not an alloy, a crystal alloy is an obviously ridiculous concept, but using magic to force the crystal to grow into a dense material ought to be plausible and ought to result in a version of the crystal that loses its low weight but gains compression-resistance. It is rather absurd an idea, but seems well within the bounds of magic to my mind.

I feel like you just disagree with CW designs on principal now.
Nom it is just the constant stream of nonsense that the poor G.M. has to translate into a working concept. Like calling my crystal-gorwn-through-metal thing an alloy. C.W. insisted that creating an alloy was too difficult, I insisted that comaring it to an alloy was ridiculous and C.W. insisted that it was very definitely an alloy and was very definiately allow-level difficult even though alloys are dificult because you need to get the measurments and cnditions right and if you just get the crystal to grow through a material then there are no measuments or conditions.
And we get crystalworks that are an assembly line to improve the production of things that come into being fully formed from a single act. Fortunately we ended up with three-dimensional printing instead of an assembly line and so it would actually work and be of benefit rather than just sending 5 wizards to do a job that one could do.
...
This is what I have to deal with, this is where "Crystal alloy" came from.
It is just combiningthe two, in a fashion that is plausible. We have never explained what happens to whatever is in the place that a summoned thing is summoned into. This just places something other than air where the crystal is summoned and has the crystal summoned around it. Normally this would just be heavy crystals, as lead doesn't really do anything to improve crystal other than maybe increase its shock resistance, but in a very very much less weight-efficient way than you would get from just adding more crystal. What it does achieve, however, is making the lead rigid until it impacts, which is pretty much the only thing that matters. Hardness is basically irrelevant in such forces and structure generally loses out to things like blast-waves. This just holds a liead-projectile's form so that it all piles onto a single point instead of behaving like a liquid and spreading out.
You want to make a crystal-lead alloy.
We have never done anything like this before. At best this is a revision of its own. You're seeking insane overcomplication here and I frankly don't know why.
Spontaneously we have, from nowhere, that it is an alloy, and that alloys are hard to do. It is not an alloy, and it either works or id doesn't. Possibly it takes more power to get it to summon in a dense environment. Maybe it even requires a special magic to overcome the material's presence. Maybe it just doesn't work and we are left with a lump of normal lead that still would have worked well enough and we would have learned something. But no, apparently I am making the mystical lead-crystal alloy that is so difficult instead of just making a simple mass increase to our existing crystals by summoning them into a high-density environment and letting their low-density nature be filled in.

C.,W. just has a gift for adding bizarre things that obviously won't work. In this instance we put a lot of effort into making the steam work and now it is being removed. It certainly could work, this is not a particularly unworkable idea, it is just that what is holding us back right now is materials, also, a fireball requires a lot more magic than the current ammunition provides so we are obviously looking at a greatly reduced spell in there, Which means that it is developing an entirely new fireball spell. Now this idea could actually work. It will do nothing about the airships which will murder us next turn, but it would actually do what is advertised, which is more than can be said for some of the other ones.
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3062 on: June 11, 2017, 12:31:09 am »

Jesus, RAM. Tone it down, please. It definitely feels like you have a vendetta against me and you should really just tone it down a bit.
It's fine to disagree, but personal attacks shouldn't be okay.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3063 on: June 11, 2017, 12:34:55 am »

Jesus, RAM. Tone it down, please. It definitely feels like you have a vendetta against me and you should really just tone it down a bit.
It's fine to disagree, but personal attacks shouldn't be okay.
Please site a personal attack. It looks to me as though all my references are to proposals rather than your person. Now if we want a personal attack, then I could say that you do not know what an alloy is, which is fine, everyone's knowledge is different, we can't be experts at everything. And you also do not seem to know what makes alloys difficult. Again, not an issue, just varying knowledge, but you raise "alloy" as a problem even though you do not know if it is an alloy and do not know if it would be a problem in context, which means that you are claiming know;edge that you do not possess, which is about as great a mental failing as one can possess.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 12:38:04 am by RAM »
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3064 on: June 11, 2017, 12:58:52 am »

Jesus Christ, guys.  You're on the same team.  Take it down a notch.


Someone break the tie, please, so I can put out a design tonight.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 01:04:51 am by evictedSaint »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3065 on: June 11, 2017, 01:27:24 am »

Unless you're willing to choose randomly (please no) I don't think there'll be an update tonight. Seems like anyone with the ability to break the tie is offline.

I do think that Andres is in support of the AS-R1 though. He seemed satisfied with the result after his edits were made. But I'm hesistant to move his vote for him because you can never be sure.


So right now I'd say it's a tie for the AS-R1 and Bird Cavalry. Probably the best chance of breaking the tie is someone switching their vote over to the AS-R1, since I mostly doubt Helmacon (or Andres) would change their votes.
EDIT: Or someone new voting, but that seems fairly unlikely?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 01:30:59 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3066 on: June 11, 2017, 01:31:30 am »

Alright, I'll put off the vote then.

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3067 on: June 11, 2017, 02:02:27 am »

Unless you're willing to choose randomly (please no) I don't think there'll be an update tonight. Seems like anyone with the ability to break the tie is offline.

I do think that Andres is in support of the AS-R1 though. He seemed satisfied with the result after his edits were made. But I'm hesistant to move his vote for him because you can never be sure.


So right now I'd say it's a tie for the AS-R1 and Bird Cavalry. Probably the best chance of breaking the tie is someone switching their vote over to the AS-R1, since I mostly doubt Helmacon (or Andres) would change their votes.
EDIT: Or someone new voting, but that seems fairly unlikely?
The R1 does not help us take out their skyships which is something we need to do. If I were to vote for the R1 it would be a three-way tie between it, birds, and the gyrocopter.

Glory to Arstotzka.

EDIT: ((GM, can you do a coin toss? I don't think it's fair to Moskurg for them to be kept waiting because of us.))
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 02:04:29 am by Andres »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3068 on: June 11, 2017, 02:05:54 am »

I would take out my vote for the gyrocopter and whatnot if the R1 gets another vote.

The AS-R1 may not immediately help against airships by itself, but it gives us further advantage on ground, and helps a lot against their carpets which by far make up the bulk of their forces.
The AS-R1 design combined with my planned revision - crystal engines+cannons - to really help us at sea and ground. Their carpets will be much less of a problem just like their ground forces, and their airships will likely fall before they can destroy our Crystalclads. The main problem at sea is the fact that while it takes a lot of hits to down their airship, they can destroy our Crystalclads easily because there's a single weak point - the steam engine.
Making the steam engines out of crystal removes the weakpoints of our Crystalclads and makes them a lot more durable - to the point where they should be able to shoot down airships long before they suffer enough sustained damage.

Just anything but bird cavalry, really.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3069 on: June 11, 2017, 02:11:07 am »

I'll vote for the R1 so long as you don't take out the vote for the gyrocopter.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3070 on: June 11, 2017, 02:17:23 am »

I'm completely fine with that; sure.

EDIT: Regarding a coin toss - while I personally don't like it (I really don't want bird cavalry) I suppose I don't really want to hold up the game. So I won't complain at all if there is one.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 02:25:30 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

andrea

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3071 on: June 11, 2017, 03:16:43 am »


Quote
DESIGN

3 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane), Andrea
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R): RAM
1 Jetbirds: RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R): RAM
0 Aether Blink (w/ Research Credit):
4 AS-SPA-1 (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, helmacon, Andrea
1 Celestedemorte: RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
3 AS-HR1 Steam Rifle (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andrea

I will say that I still believe that the gyrocopter is FAAAAAAAR harder than you make it, although a few revisions may fix it. or designs.
I still think we should use hot air baloons to help with lift.

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3072 on: June 11, 2017, 07:38:35 am »

I put Andres' vote for the AS-R1 since he said:
I'll vote for the R1 so long as you don't take out the vote for the gyrocopter.

Glory to Arstotzka.
And since I am not taking out my vote for the gyrocopter, his vote goes in.

Quote
DESIGN

3 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane), Andrea
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R): RAM
1 Jetbirds: RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R): RAM
0 Aether Blink (w/ Research Credit):
4 AS-SPA-1 (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, helmacon, Andrea
1 Celestedemorte: RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
4 AS-R1 Steam Rifle (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andrea, Andres

So right now it's a 2-way tie between the AS-SPA-1 and the AS-HR1 Steam Rifle. And the tie is because the same four people are voting for both.
...sorry, Evicted.

But uh, I'll just let others decide with their votes since I'm neutral on between the two. And I told Andres I wouldn't remove my vote for the AS-SPA-1.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 07:41:52 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

andrea

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3073 on: June 11, 2017, 07:43:40 am »

hehe. If it is the same 4 people for both, at least a coin flip would be acceptable now.

I am tempted to drop the SPA vote. Will think about it.

evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3074 on: June 11, 2017, 12:25:42 pm »

Coin flip in an hour, unless the tie gets broken.
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