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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4449885 times)

Strongpoint

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54090 on: November 17, 2024, 05:37:09 pm »

IMO, low literacy rates like this come not from bad or underfunded education.

They come from deeper social problems that can't be solved by better schools.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54091 on: November 17, 2024, 07:24:47 pm »

can't be solved *exclusively* by better schools.

Better funded and operated schools and education system will help, but many people don't value their own or their childrens' education, see it as worthless or even detrimental, as propaganda and brain washing. You can't fix that without addressing the parents' attitudes as much as the kids and teachers and their funding and administration. Among a thousand other things.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54092 on: November 17, 2024, 08:21:52 pm »

IMO, low literacy rates like this come not from bad or underfunded education.

They come from deeper social problems that can't be solved by better schools.
It's... not even that. The "deeper social problem" with a national reading level in the 5th to 6th grade range is that basically no one outside of academia writes at over a 6th grade level (this comes up occasionally in my job working a library; most fiction, even classical works or very complicated modern fiction, just doesn't breach a 7th grade level). It's not just rarely used, it's often outright bad writing that obfuscates communication. Lots of people don't learn to read comfortably at a higher level than that because it's just not very useful outside of pretty technical fields (higher academia, research, law, maybe some others), and most people capable of it aren't going to write or read at that level with any regularity.

US does have some problems with lower end literacy, but it has very little to do with the common talking point about 5th-6th grade reading level, and critical thinking skills are largely orthogonal to them (this is where my old philosophy academic ambitions grumble about rhetoric education and the related practical aspects of the field).

All due respect and much love to true, the problems we have on the literacy front doesn't have much to do with the grade level equivalent thing. US is genuinely pretty okay on that front, and a 5-6th grade level is legitimately enough to interact with and understand most civil issues. It's a lot more capable than a lot of the chatter on the subject seems to realize, and having a population largely settling at that level is... okay. It's not a societal problem on its own.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2024, 08:24:40 pm by Frumple »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54093 on: November 17, 2024, 08:43:08 pm »

Also, without access to the sources used, it is difficult to be sure the study being mentioned isn't one of those that shows high illiteracy rates along the Southern border while measuring English literacy.
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Truean

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54094 on: November 17, 2024, 10:07:33 pm »

Please do not Quote



Sources?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Links provided sources. Perhaps misunderstanding was mine? Methodology could hold flaws. However, multiple persistent studies hold this?
Ability to communicate in common language quite helpful generally. "Grade level" may be arbitrary, but some standard was required. Was it unclear on language used?


Some agreement on wider social issues as problems. Respectful disagreement on low "5th grade" literacy level being ok.

Generally, arguments to usefulness persuade me. Here, argument appears misapplied? Is this statement, "US is genuinely pretty okay on that front, and a 5-6th grade level is legitimately enough to interact with and understand most civil issues," true? Disagree, on definition, "usefulness," sufficiency (enough)."

Sadly, many assume "higher level" reading/writing is not useful or is quite wasteful. It seems you perhaps assume reading at a higher level is less useful and prevalent. Less prevalent, yes. Less useful, disagree. Done well, higher level reading/writing is very understandable; it is rarely done well, as doing so takes work, and good (rare) education. Perhaps the need and usefulness permits (in part) considering others' views in good faith, empathy, etc., which applied results in critical thinking and civil problem solving. If nothing else, it lowers the debate temperature (which is presently boiling and rising with insults in politics and beyond, unfortunately).

I respectfully contend increased language level helps resolve issues by seeing practical requirements and enabling solutions.
Two fight over an orange. One orange; two people; too bad. First, both think, "I get it." Eventually, they split it evenly.
The first eats his half and throws away the peel; the second wanted the peel for a cake. Result: half the fruit; half a peel.
Wiser option would have been talking, and giving one all the fruit and the other all the peel to satisfy both.
Examples abound. Farmer wants fence; rancher wants to drive cattle to pasture, but fence blocks. Conflict. Wiser result: a gate. 
Interpersonal relationships alone are a massive application and the divorce rate is a huge consequence.

Summation, higher level reading/writing need not be impenetrable if done well. Many societal problems exist. Reading, writing, and thinking through problems, root causes, solutions and mechanism, benefits from higher level language/literacy. Practically, I've seen bad things play out and well, there's a reason it said "70% of inmates in the US prison system can't read above a 4th grade level." There could perhaps be study methodology flaws, but there is still a large literacy gap. Correlation does not equal causation, but I find it curious there is also an empathy gap among several others. I don't think it's right, or fair. I think being able to read helps generally. I don't know that the level we have is "sufficient," or that we shouldn't aim higher for everyone's benefit.

Your view is a fairly common one, but one I don't subscribe to. Increased reading level is increased tools available to use. I imagine you likely have reasons for what you say, perhaps based upon your experiences communicating knowledge to those only seeking it.

Please do not Quote
« Last Edit: November 17, 2024, 10:15:04 pm by Truean »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54095 on: November 17, 2024, 10:27:28 pm »



Most of those sources are secondary sources, not primary studies - they're reporting on the root studies without linking to them.

The one link that had an easily comprehended map did in fact show the highest illiteracy rates along the Southern border. Which is because most of these studies measure it by the country's primary or official language. Which makes sense for the concentration to the south because measuring "literacy in English" will give a poor score to somebody who doesn't speak good English due to their primary language being Spanish.
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Truean

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54096 on: November 17, 2024, 10:38:27 pm »

Please do not quote


Not unreasonable on your part. Yes, typically secondary rather than primary sources cited. Methodology may require refinement or restatement. Further, issue conflation: literacy verses common language. Perhaps English literacy is "more desirable," for common communication if that is intended measurement. Perhaps distinguishing between languages is more helpful. Furthermore, is there a separation between literacy and fluency. This may depend on what they are trying to measure and how well their method captures this. Oddly, greater literacy level helps express these differences, however well or not so well they are measured. Acknowledgment; conflation separation; intended measurement; literacy v. fluency; method capturing measurement; increased literacy helps describe issue.

You may well have a good point. Granted, methodology could be clearer. I still presently believe there are literacy issues though.

Please do not quote
« Last Edit: November 17, 2024, 10:41:42 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54097 on: November 19, 2024, 01:10:21 pm »

To try and balance myself, I went and read some of the user posts in the comments of Fox News.  There are people there talking about how Trump is a liberal, among other things.

I'm now convinced that there's a large number of people who really aren't interested in reality at all, which is why arguments about reality, causation, or anything else don't work on them. These people seriously just create their own realities.  I thought this was a unique observation, but there was an article about it and how Trump's nominations are basically a doubling-down on this "we'll just create our own reality."

Basically you can't reason with this population, because that population has basically just eschewed reason in the first place.

I'm not sure I know what to do with this information.
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54098 on: November 19, 2024, 01:43:51 pm »

Those are the people that describe reality as a "dog eat dog world" while they are attempting to apply coercions to force you to submit to becoming a slave worker, a slave thug, or a buffer between them and their rivals.

The ongoing danger is when they do successfully get enough people in their hierarchy to replace the laws that have protected their activities until then.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54099 on: November 19, 2024, 03:40:52 pm »

To try and balance myself, I went and read some of the user posts in the comments of Fox News.  There are people there talking about how Trump is a liberal, among other things.

I was searching for info about the Bomb Cyclone yesterday, accidently stumbled upon one of those sites. Full of comments about how liberals are making up fake news to sell their Global Warming lies.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54100 on: November 20, 2024, 10:38:51 am »

Regarding the nominations: as I see it there's four goals here:
1: Reward sycophants with power
2: Have extreme leverage on all subordinates
3: Destroy institutions as per stated policy goals
4: Manifest authority; act above law in all things in order to BE above the law in all things.

This last is why he appointed a pedophile to the DOJ. People must _know_ that he's a sex offender, and that the system protects him. To the right, law is a command from above, meaning that the origin of law, the highest authority, is lawless.

The Congress will step aside and grant Trump all his nominations. There's is no alternative. Interference with Trump's agenda will result in political self-destruction. It's been Trump's party since 2016.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54101 on: November 20, 2024, 10:55:36 am »

I can't quite figure out why people capitulate to Trump though? I mean he's not really that powerful, and he doesn't really have that much money... so what do they fear? Or are they really using Trump as a tool (e.g., to normalize this kind of power, so they can have it for themselves)?

From my vantage point it makes no sense, so what am I missing? Who's really pulling the strings?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2024, 10:59:09 am by McTraveller »
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pisskop

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54102 on: November 20, 2024, 11:05:20 am »

Most people are not using Trump.  The populism is, well, popular.

Change, hurting those who deserve it, cutting back spending, tribalism, pulling out of wars, and the stimulus he promises - all appeal to the layman.

Those in politics are in a position of being ousted by him either through backroom shunning or via constituents being pressured to not re-elect them.  Trump's power is that he is loud, in the media focus, and has power already.

Those at or above him see him more for what he does.


I think those with the actual power see Trump as an imperfect tool.  He's shaking things up, and that always opens up opportunities for both policy change/narrative shift and for capitalism to exploit the vacuums and inefficiencies.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54103 on: November 20, 2024, 11:39:25 am »

So it might be weird to me that, as Trump win the popular vote, why it’s rare to see a MAGA guy here on the bay 12 forum? Even in where I live here, Trump still has a lot of fans, a roommate of mine, who is keen on traditional Chinese divination, is a Trump-fan who believed that Trump will win, as he has proved it to me with his whole mysterious theoretical system and the results.

My idiotic analysis which might be laughable or offensive :-X :-\
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Maybe it’s because he was survived from the assassins within the aid from the god…I am not religious and I don’t buy it, but most Americans are Christian and they will see Trump as a new messiah.
If he abused his power to reach something for the sake of his own personal gains and harm the benefit of the commons , I will definitely feel sorrow for the Americans.
But we’d better take a more optimistic view on him, what if he makes something even more beneficial to the public? At least we will see a lot of ‘jokes’ in the following four years .

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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #54104 on: November 20, 2024, 11:46:48 am »

Eh, very few USians actually follow Christ, despite calling themselves "Christian." But as we've stated before, many millions of people in the US basically don't care about reality, so...

I will actually eat crow if Trump does anything that benefits the general public, rather than some small cult of Trump-loyalists.
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