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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4435030 times)

wobbly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52545 on: February 17, 2024, 12:40:42 pm »

Trump paying more in damages with no actual victim than Norfolk Southern for ruining an entire town.

Message clear: Don't base your business in a Blue state.

Alternatively mount an actual defense case instead of hurling random abuse at the court trying you, like a dumb shit.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52546 on: February 17, 2024, 12:47:35 pm »

Trump paying more in damages with no actual victim than Norfolk Southern for ruining an entire town.

Message clear: Don't base your business in a Blue state.
And/or don't live a normal life in a Red one?
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52547 on: February 17, 2024, 01:27:51 pm »

I think his message is don’t punish white collar criminals because fraud is a victimless crime.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52548 on: February 17, 2024, 04:59:40 pm »

Trump paying more in damages with no actual victim than Norfolk Southern for ruining an entire town.
Message clear: Don't base your business in a Blue state.

Trump spent a lifetime engaging in blatantly illegal business practices. Of course, these types of practices are fairly commonplace, and most businessmen are never held to account. Trump being held accountable has nothing to do with political differences, but everything to do with Trump being stupid enough to place himself in the spotlight by running for president, and doing so on the most controversial platforms he could find. Most shady businessmen have enough common sense to keep their heads down and not draw attention to themselves.
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52549 on: February 17, 2024, 06:49:28 pm »

Trump was blue when he was doing business in NY before his political career Rudy Giuliani was also...

This is not a red/blue thing.

When your property's estimated worth is based on tripled-values, you tend to drive up the neighborhood's sale prices, property taxes, and insurance payments. When everyone else is reporting accurately and you are not, you are paying less taxes and they are paying more.
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There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Maximum™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52550 on: February 18, 2024, 05:59:25 am »

He also secured loans which would have had much different interest payments with accurate data, as well as directly profiting from selling buildings with his usual scammy methods.

The shame here isn't that he is getting smacked for it, the shame is that he'll never get smacked for everything he (and his dad) did to make money too far back for statue of limitations considerations.

He supposedly had ~400 million in ready cash last year, with interest on this he's over 450 million, plus the defamation case puts him over half a billion in the hole, and all his talk about appealing it seems to neglect that he has to put the cash in escrow (or whatever the term is with legal situations like this) or secure a bond (requiring trustworthiness), which, ha ha, good fucking luck you disgusting orange turd!
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52551 on: February 18, 2024, 04:27:51 pm »

I think his message is don’t punish white collar criminals because fraud is a victimless crime.

So who's been defrauded? The bank?

In making her case against Trump, Letitia James called to the stand a lending expert who estimated that Deutsche Bank gave up $168 million in extra interest on its Trump loans, basing his calculations as if Trump never offered a personal guarantee.

But Trump did offer a guarantee, even if his estimate of his personal wealth was exaggerated. In fact, the bank made its own estimates of Trump’s personal wealth, at times lopping billions from Trump’s figures, and still decided to lend to him.

And testimony from Deutsche officials responsible for the loans suggested that deciding the right rate at which to lend, even absent Trump’s personal guarantee, isn’t so simple.

The Deutsche unit making the Trump business loans wasn’t the typical lending unit, but its private wealth division. That group often lends to rich clients not only to earn interest but to help its chances of winning the lucrative business of managing their vast personal investments and getting them to buy other bank services — something that testimony showed Deutsche was clearly hoping to do with the ex-president.

Looks like "Nope." They made their own assessment and were still okay lending the money, rather than laughing him out of their office. (And unrealized profits aren't even considered damages, legally. That would require Trump defaulting on the loan.)

When your property's estimated worth is based on tripled-values, you tend to drive up the neighborhood's sale prices, property taxes, and insurance payments. When everyone else is reporting accurately and you are not, you are paying less taxes and they are paying more.

That's not really how it works, AFAIK. Sale prices go up when you actually sell something. Property taxes and insurance are based on the official tax broker assessment (i.e., $18M Mar-a-lago) not the highly speculative real estate value ($300M to $1B) that a hypothetical someone might be willing to pay.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 04:46:21 pm by Bumber »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52552 on: February 18, 2024, 04:42:37 pm »

When your property's estimated worth is based on tripled-values, you tend to drive up the neighborhood's sale prices, property taxes, and insurance payments. When everyone else is reporting accurately and you are not, you are paying less taxes and they are paying more.

That's not really how it works, AFAIK. Sale prices go up when you actually sell something. Property taxes and insurance are based on the official tax broker assessment (i.e., $18M Mar-a-lago) not the highly speculative real estate value ($300M to $1B) that a hypothetical someone might be willing to pay.
It's extremely not how it works, indeed. There's also no such thing as "reporting accurately" in this case - the value of a property (or anything) is not well-defined until it's sold. If the owner believes it's worth $300M and won't settle for less than that, then you have to pay $300M to buy it. There's no single objective value, only what it's worth to individual people. Which, by the way, is why the practice of valuing properties at what you believe you can sell them for, not what the government says the value is, has never been considered "blatantly illegal" before now. The bank, of course, will do its own due diligence and decide whether it agrees or disagrees, which it did. This will absolutely not survive appeal.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52553 on: February 18, 2024, 04:50:23 pm »

From the linked article:

Quote
Notably, New York’s anti-fraud statute, known as Executive Law 63(12), is clear that a finding of fraud does not require intent to deceive or that anyone actually gets duped or loses money. The attorney general must only show “repeated fraudulent or illegal acts.”

Quote
Trump’s case involved 11 years of financial statements with values based on disputed and sometimes outright false descriptions of properties used as collateral should his loans go bust.

Among them: Trump exaggerated the size of his Manhattan penthouse apartment by three times. He listed unfinished buildings as if they were complete, and apartments under rent-control as if they were free of such rules. He showed restricted funds as if they were liquid cash. And Trump valued Mar-a-Lago as a single residence, though he had signed away rights to develop it as anything but a club.

He lied about a lot of things in order to enrich himself.

If you don’t think that’s a problem, I hope to never have to do business with you.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52554 on: February 18, 2024, 04:54:57 pm »

... isn't that the one the defense fucked up so badly there's nothing to appeal, anyway? Forget exactly which one it was, but one of the civil trials the idiot's ate damages for lately ended up like that. Appealing a civil trial takes specific issues to appeal for, and none of those were involved in the particular trial due to how badly the defense performed.

Can't even try for ineffective counsel or whatever that is because that literally doesn't apply to civil cases. The only recourse the shit will have will be suing the lawyers, and lol to that one.

Though I might be thinking of one of the defamation trials, I'unno. There's enough of them they get mixed up.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 04:56:38 pm by Frumple »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52555 on: February 18, 2024, 05:16:24 pm »

... isn't that the one the defense fucked up so badly there's nothing to appeal, anyway? Forget exactly which one it was, but one of the civil trials the idiot's ate damages for lately ended up like that. Appealing a civil trial takes specific issues to appeal for, and none of those were involved in the particular trial due to how badly the defense performed.

Can't even try for ineffective counsel or whatever that is because that literally doesn't apply to civil cases. The only recourse the shit will have will be suing the lawyers, and lol to that one.

Though I might be thinking of one of the defamation trials, I'unno. There's enough of them they get mixed up.
It's certainly not this one, no. I'm not aware of what trial you're talking about, but I don't find Trump interesting enough to pay attention to all of them, so it's probably just one of the defamation trials you mention.

He lied about a lot of things in order to enrich himself.

If you don’t think that’s a problem, I hope to never have to do business with you.
Come on, hector, you know there's room between "this doesn't meet the legal definition of fraud" and "this isn't a problem".

Your first quote, by the way, about the law, just makes it most likely that the law itself will be struck down if it goes to the Supremes.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52556 on: February 18, 2024, 06:08:03 pm »

... isn't that the one the defense fucked up so badly there's nothing to appeal, anyway? Forget exactly which one it was, but one of the civil trials the idiot's ate damages for lately ended up like that. Appealing a civil trial takes specific issues to appeal for, and none of those were involved in the particular trial due to how badly the defense performed.

Can't even try for ineffective counsel or whatever that is because that literally doesn't apply to civil cases. The only recourse the shit will have will be suing the lawyers, and lol to that one.

Though I might be thinking of one of the defamation trials, I'unno. There's enough of them they get mixed up.
It's certainly not this one, no. I'm not aware of what trial you're talking about, but I don't find Trump interesting enough to pay attention to all of them, so it's probably just one of the defamation trials you mention.

He lied about a lot of things in order to enrich himself.

If you don’t think that’s a problem, I hope to never have to do business with you.
Come on, hector, you know there's room between "this doesn't meet the legal definition of fraud" and "this isn't a problem".

Your first quote, by the way, about the law, just makes it most likely that the law itself will be struck down if it goes to the Supremes.


No, he lied about the size of the apartment by a factor of 3. That is not subjective, that is a LIE. He lied that buildings were finished when they were not. That is not subjective, that is another lie. And so on. It does absolutely 100% meet the legal definition of fraud because he absolutely, undeniably lied about the objective facts of properties that were involved in a business transaction.

And on what grounds exactly, do you think it'll certainly be overturned on appeal, or even make the far-out claim that the Supreme Court will strike down the law? Why so confident your alternative legal theory will actually be considered at all? We've already established that the courts so far are in complete disagreement with your understanding of how the law works.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 06:18:09 pm by bloop_bleep »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52557 on: February 18, 2024, 06:42:19 pm »

No, he lied about the size of the apartment by a factor of 3. That is not subjective, that is a LIE. He lied that buildings were finished when they were not. That is not subjective, that is another lie. And so on. It does absolutely 100% meet the legal definition of fraud because he absolutely, undeniably lied about the objective facts of properties that were involved in a business transaction.

And on what grounds exactly, do you think it'll certainly be overturned on appeal, or even make the far-out claim that the Supreme Court will strike down the law? Why so confident your alternative legal theory will actually be considered at all? We've already established that the courts so far are in complete disagreement with your understanding of how the law works.
Because for a lie to be fraud, it must be made with intent to deceive the other party into relying on misinformation about a material fact which would reasonably change that party's decision, on which the party actually does rely, causing actual damages. To the best of my knowledge, exactly no prongs of this have been proven, and the questions of whether the bank actually relied on his misrepresentation and suffered damages have both soundly been answered no.
Based on the plain reading of Executive Law 63, it's ambiguous whether it actually intends to extend the definition of "fraud" beyond the common-law definition in the way the article implies, especially because it uses the word "defraud" to define "fraud"; it may therefore end up being considered void for vagueness, but if not, and it is construed to do so, it would be unconstitutional for covering protected speech. (It is not in this case necessary for the court to determine whether the speech at issue in the case was protected, only that the law MAY cover protected speech.) Depending on how it's construed, it may also be unconstitutional for additional reasons, but there isn't a bonus round, so it doesn't matter.

ETA: By the way, as to why I'm so confident, it's because the Supreme Court takes this kind of thing seriously and the same thing has happened to other laws like this before. State courts operate from a presumption of constitutionality in most cases, so it's simply not comparable.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 06:49:46 pm by Maximum Spin »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52558 on: February 18, 2024, 08:04:40 pm »

False statements made, many such, in no way excusable as mere errors. Those statements used by others to determine how those others deal with the false-stater. Furthermore, they create knock-on effects to others, in myriad ways, changing how they are treated/must treat in parallel and similar dealings.

I'm not saying you need to go looking for Back To The Future levels of casual knock-on-effects[1], you just need to see that some people will have received less money, some will have been charged more, and this being typically out of proportion to whatever monetary benefit(/lack of penalty) actually found its way onto the books of the actual falsifiers (which is, after all, exactly the reason they falsified in the first place).

"Victimless" in the sense that (probably...) nobody directly sustained a physical injury, or worse, but not inconsequential. Even at the first step of removal, if you really don't want to consider wanting to reverse/anull the dishonest gains coming directly from the zeroth step of removal from the decision to give "Whatever number [he] told us to."... That's not even 'creative accounting', finding alternative explanations and groupings of salient facts to make it appear to be different, that's just straight creating such accounts out of whatever whole-cloth was dumped upon them by someone who is now legally proven to be primarily liable.


[1] You went to the cinema, changing the receipt value one night, which could flip the near future financial balances just enough to change to change the forecasted business viability further down the line (for or against), this causes a cascading difference of possible scenarios which diverts one far more widely-ranging chain of cause and effects over into another chain of cause and effects. Anyway, I'm not even saying that you need to imagine all the unknowable divergences through the somewhat convoluted trouserlegs of time. Though there is that too.
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #52559 on: February 21, 2024, 06:25:36 am »

Blumenthal revealed a revised KOSAS in the past few days. It isn't revised enough to be workable.


Here is a far more knowledgeable source of information than I about this bill:

https://www.techdirt.com/2024/02/20/dont-fall-for-the-latest-changes-to-the-dangerous-kids-online-safety-act/

Spoiler: Notably (click to show/hide)

As a conjecture of my own, I recently found this

Schlesinger phases of American history[1][2][5]
From    To  Duration Type   Name

1776    1788    12    Lib    Liberal Movement to Create Constitution (Revolution, Confederation Period)
1788    1800    12    Con    Hamiltonian Federalism (Federalist Era)
1800    1812    12    Lib    Liberal Period of Jeffersonianism (Jeffersonian democracy)
1812    1829    17    Con    Conservative Retreat After War of 1812 (War of 1812, Era of Good Feelings)
1829    1841    12    Lib    Jacksonian Democracy (Jacksonian democracy)
1841    1861    20    Con    Domination of National Government by Slaveowners (Origins of the Civil War)
1861    1869    8    Lib    Abolition of Slavery and Reconstruction (Civil War, Reconstruction Era)
1869    1901    32    Con    The Gilded Age (Gilded Age)
1901    1919    18    Lib    Progressive Era (Progressive Era, World War I)
1919    1931    12    Con    Republican Restoration (Roaring Twenties)
1931    1947    16    Lib    The New Deal (Great Depression, World War II)
1947    1962    15    Con    (Postwar Era, The Fifties)
1962    1978    16    Lib    (Civil Rights Era, The Sixties)
1978                   Con    (Reagan Era).
« Last Edit: February 21, 2024, 07:35:42 am by Duuvian »
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