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[McTraveller]

I don't know if it's "stupid" so much as "easily convinced by emotionally charged propaganda."

It's way easier to tell people "Hey you don't like your situation, well it's due to this group over there, if you put me in charge I'll take care of it!  Oh hey the reason I wasn't able to solve your problems when I was in charge was because of this other group..." and people believe it. I think it actually is because they don't have the mental tools available to hold the leadership accountable - they have prioritized the dopamine hit of "this bombastic figurehead says stuff I like!" over "wait a minute, do these policies really help me out?"

There's a generation of people who claim to not trust authority, yet blindly trust some other "authority" that claims to fix everything for them.

If there was a way to watch from the outside it would be interesting, but the entire human race appears to be suffering from this stuff... there's no "safe place" from which to observe.

[Lord Shonus]

Always remember that a huge part of the voting population -in any country, not just the US- doesn't follow politics all that closely. For a great many, their information begins and ends with the political ads they see during Jeopardy and what they see on the morning and evening news while they wait for the weather to come on. Nowadays there's also Facebook posts and such, but that's also not a channel that gives large amounts of detailed and accurate information.

[Il Palazzo]

Sounds like the deplorables narrative all over again.

[Rolan7]

Sounds like the deplorables narrative all over again.

And just like that narrative it doesn't matter what people *actually* say.  Certain people will twist anything to feel like the victims and justify voting against their own interests, and especially against the interests of [insert vulnerable minority here].  It's just stupid, and paying it false respect only legitimizes it.

[Strongpoint]

Sounds like the deplorables narrative all over again.

This always works great especially when so many vote against not for

[Loud Whispers]

Sounds like the deplorables narrative all over again.

And just like that narrative it doesn't matter what people *actually* say.  Certain people will twist anything to feel like the victims and justify voting against their own interests, and especially against the interests of [insert vulnerable minority here].  It's just stupid, and paying it false respect only legitimizes it.

I think it's worth noting in the original speech where Hillary coined "basket of deplorables" she was saying there were two kinds of Trump voters; those who are broke and desperate, abandoned by politics altogether, and the basket of deplorables who were racist/sexist/homophobic/islamophobic/xenophobic. That got fed through the outrage machine into "Hillary is calling YOU deplorable" and before you knew it every GOP rally had waves of ppl selling deplorable merch. A cautionary tale in own-goaling yourself by carelessly talking about your fellow man, cos the easiest way to rally a group "is they are not us, they are attacking us"

[anewaname]

On Biden's bi-partisan activities that led to investments in red states... did those investments come with oversight controls that would ensure upper-income communities would not be able to trap and control the profits? Biden's allowing those investments in red-states, was it the result of a compromise, or of an intent to improve the economics in those states?

@Maximum™
If you want to "conquer" the trump mob, you need to divide them, not unite them by calling them all "stupid".

You need to understand what the "they will never help me" problem is, so they stop choosing "so burn down the system".

You need to see where the differences in their sub-groups can be applied against them, and make those differences apparent to the sub-groups.

Until you expose those manipulating the mob, the mob will continue to shout in unison.

Find the differences in their sub-groups. Inevitably you will expose those who are preying on their own tribe and you will expose to their tribe the methods of exploitation.

EDIT:Also, take a look at how often you used the "they" to bundle the Trumpers.

[Rolan7]

Sounds like the deplorables narrative all over again.

And just like that narrative it doesn't matter what people *actually* say.  Certain people will twist anything to feel like the victims and justify voting against their own interests, and especially against the interests of [insert vulnerable minority here].  It's just stupid, and paying it false respect only legitimizes it.

I think it's worth noting in the original speech where Hillary coined "basket of deplorables" she was saying there were two kinds of Trump voters; those who are broke and desperate, abandoned by politics altogether, and the basket of deplorables who were racist/sexist/homophobic/islamophobic/xenophobic. That got fed through the outrage machine into "Hillary is calling YOU deplorable" and before you knew it every GOP rally had waves of ppl selling deplorable merch. A cautionary tale in own-goaling yourself by carelessly talking about your fellow man, cos the easiest way to rally a group "is they are not us, they are attacking us"

Thanks for explaining the context I didn't bother to

My conclusion is a bit different, that her actual words didn't matter at all and there's no point to respectability politics when one side is so post-truth.  But meh.

[Maximum™]

Acting like fascists have anything worth debating only helps fascists, they need to be excluded and humiliated and defeated and punished until they are willing to slink back into polite society, ideally they should have to disavow their bullshit, but honestly as long as they get punched anytime they speak up it'll be fine, we didn't defeat nazis 80 years ago by coddling them and acting like they had valid issues.

These are people happily supporting the idea that only straight male christian white people should have any power, that black people, jewish people, trans people, female people, and any other targetable group are not people, and as far as I'm concerned that means those pushing these ideas aren't people anymore. They turned in their right to have basic decency and benefit of the doubt apply to them once they started aggressively going after the vulnerable. I'm on the side of their targets because I'm not a piece of shit.

Over the last almost decade since I've been arguing these nazis are a fucking problem we've seen that coddling them and acting like they can be debated and defeated in the marketplace of ideas has failed so we need to treat them like a threat unless we're cool accepting them having power.


Some percent of these assholes were polled saying they're totally cool with supporting an orange fascist fuck who wants to dismantle the constitution, install himself as a dictator, and that absolutely nothing will cause them to change their mind.

That is despicable, but it is worse in many ways that the rest of their party aren't cutting them off like a diseased limb to be tossed into the fire. In the US now we don't have a red party and a blue one anymore, we have an orange one and everyone else. We'll all be better off once he's fucking dead, hopefully the stress of these trials and his diet will make that happen sooner than later, I'm just disappointed because I know they won't stop being fascist once he finally keels over, though I am glad none of the other turds pursuing their vote have whatever ineffably shitty quality he does to unite them.

[McTraveller]

The way you defeat errant ideas isn't to tell the adherents they are wrong. The way you defeat them is to attract them to a better idea.

(I don't know to whom to attribute that concept, but it isn't mine. I know I read it somewhere.)

Basically what you do is say something like "If you think policy X is good, wait till you experience policy Y - it is so much better!"

What you have to do is appeal to what they like about their currently (for example) fascist viewpoint.  Convince them that there is something even better than spending your money to keep out the immigrants, like let the immigrants work for you to get paid from their work, so you don't have to work as much!

Basically you have to address their fears; don't tell people they are wrong, make them feel like they are "winning," but in a better direction.

[Random_Dragon]

You don't appeal to wannabe fascists with anything less than fascism. They've had their chance and actively chose to continue pursuing self-destructive violence despite all attempt to show them that things don't have to be this way. They've decided that's what they want, and no amount of appeasement is going to do a goddamn ounce of good.

They only cure for stupidity like that is to let natural selection take its course.

[hector13]

I mean we’ve had this conversation before, probably not much point in rehashing it.

[dragdeler]

They humiliate themselves on a regular basis, I don't think they can be ostracized or that ostracizing them would have any effect. For that they would need to be able to differentiate between blame and shame and since they employ the latter only offensively, on a vector from them to the outside so to speak,, they actually only know the former. Yes theeyy (halloweeny spookey inflection).

What is to be done yes... no. What can you do. Not saying that rhetorically as to shrug my shoulders. Find out what you can do and do that instead. Doing not talking. Everbody passing the broom in front of their own house door, all of us toiling away solipsistically is not going to save the world... But what can you do but hope that my we got enough time to for a mentality shift, lol.


The deplorable will never be "converted" at best you'll lure them elsewhere if you can be a rolemodel for success.

[wobbly]

In my view Trump is the same politics as religious cults. If you are an outsider it's obvious the cult leader is a conman. If you are a cult member the guru you worship can do no wrong. Any evidence to the contrary must be ignored.

[Bumber]

jewish people

lol. That's why Jewish students are being attacked on liberal campuses.

Nice try, crypto-fascists.