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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4241594 times)

anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49530 on: September 03, 2022, 07:38:27 pm »

As soon as the discussion becomes a "did Trump or Hillary do the most wrong" thing, the topic has shifted away from the "who violated the laws" thing. Both Trump and Hillary should be persecuted for what they did, according to the law, not according to each others actions.
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Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49531 on: September 03, 2022, 07:50:41 pm »

Sure, I guess. Trump signed into law in 2019 or so at least one law that made what he did in this case a federal felony at minimum, nevermind everything else about his theft of classified documents that was illegal. Hillary was found to have done a 'careless, but not indictably so' stupid, Trump then made that explicitly criminal and proceeded to do things that warrants even greater sentencing than he signed into law, so :V
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49532 on: September 03, 2022, 08:30:05 pm »

As soon as the discussion becomes a "did Trump or Hillary do the most wrong" thing, the topic has shifted away from the "who violated the laws" thing. Both Trump and Hillary should be persecuted for what they did, according to the law, not according to each others actions.

Except that the only laws prohibiting anything Hillary did with her emails were passed after she left her position as SecState. When she was in office, using a private email server instead of a government one was 100% legal. The law says there is no basis for prosecuting Hillary at all.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49533 on: September 03, 2022, 09:10:13 pm »

https://twitter.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1566129374482599936

Meanwhile former CIA officials are publicly speculating about links between the information Trump took and agents they've lost abroad since. That would make the case for treason. Although the definition of treason in the Constitution is quite strict.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49534 on: September 03, 2022, 09:17:49 pm »

Yeah, treason is staggeringly unlikely even relative to the chance of the man getting executed for this. Sedition or espionage act violation or something along those lines would be plenty, and much easier to actually argue in court.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49535 on: September 03, 2022, 09:35:38 pm »

As soon as the discussion becomes a "did Trump or Hillary do the most wrong" thing, the topic has shifted away from the "who violated the laws" thing. Both Trump and Hillary should be persecuted for what they did, according to the law, not according to each others actions.

Except that the only laws prohibiting anything Hillary did with her emails were passed after she left her position as SecState. When she was in office, using a private email server instead of a government one was 100% legal. The law says there is no basis for prosecuting Hillary at all.

As was decided by the investigation at the time, and the review, I guess, before the election she lost.

If she broke the law, she’d have been punished for it.
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49536 on: September 04, 2022, 08:14:06 am »

As soon as the discussion becomes a "did Trump or Hillary do the most wrong" thing, the topic has shifted away from the "who violated the laws" thing. Both Trump and Hillary should be persecuted for what they did, according to the law, not according to each others actions.

Except that the only laws prohibiting anything Hillary did with her emails were passed after she left her position as SecState. When she was in office, using a private email server instead of a government one was 100% legal. The law says there is no basis for prosecuting Hillary at all.
Prosecute and persecute... Merriam-Webster says "One you do in court, the other you do if you're a jerk". I still don't know the specifics of the Hillary thing, but the accusation made against her was enough to start an investigation, and few investigations can be done without persecution, it is in the nature of the work. I was not trying to say she was guilty, but that "both Trump and Hillary should be persecuted for what they did, according to the law, not according to each others actions".

This thread narrative was about Trump and the missing docs then then someone rebranded the narrative into Donald's most common narrative of, "it's Donald versus the dirty cheater". I'm just trying to put "the docs" back into the narrative where the "dirty cheater" currently is, so that Donald and all his mini-me's can't benefit from the implied "Donald's not the dirty cheater because it is him versus the dirty cheater".
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Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49537 on: September 04, 2022, 11:50:46 am »

EJ has been informed multiple times of the specifics of the Clinton emails, and how it’d imparts to Trump’s current escapades.

He just doesn’t want his guy to be the bad guy, despite the mountains of evidence showing such.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

EuchreJack

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49538 on: September 04, 2022, 03:37:53 pm »

EJ has been informed multiple times of the specifics of the Clinton emails, and how it’d imparts to Trump’s current escapades.

He just doesn’t want his guy to be the bad guy, despite the mountains of evidence showing such.

HECTOR13 STOP WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS!!!!!!!

I was pretty clear about my comments being "A Republican's perspective".
It was never meant to be an argument, which seems to be the thing you REALLY REALLY like.

EuchreJack

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49539 on: September 04, 2022, 03:44:48 pm »

Well, to give you a Republican's viewpoint on the whole Trump Files case, I can't help but think "So What?"

He tried to keep some files, much the same as Hillary Clinton. Granted, Hillary wasn't as bad, since she didn't have any physical files off-site, but this is an expansion of that.
.... remember, I'm one of the more sane Republicans.

This ain't gonna be the thing that sinks Trump. BUT, it could be the thing that leads to an investigation that might turn up something at least some Republicans might not be able to forgive.
Like seriously, I even started by saying "it was a viewpoint" aka "an opinion". Not an argument. Not even a statement of fact.
I have ZERO percent interest in debating it, I'm not even saying it's accurate.
Forgive me, dear Hector13 God of Bay12, for trying to interject some opposing viewpoint into your precious echo chamber.
Like seriously dude, are you OK? You seem to be losing it. First shutting down the Emotional Ukraine thread, and now this.

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49540 on: September 04, 2022, 04:18:47 pm »

(Not sure we can compare what happened in the Emotional thread and this situation, either in railroaded or off-the-rails modes. At least not per-participant. IMO, how Hector bahaved there and how EJ bahaves here aren't really equivalents or even any sort of mirror image. That said, cooling down might be just as applicable a panacea. But this is just a deliberately abbreviated observation, with no wish to add recriminations upon any party involved. And, for what it's worth, I rather like all those involved; whatever little foibles they may occasionally exhibit... The gods know that I have ones of my own.)
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Micro102

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49541 on: September 04, 2022, 04:42:28 pm »

Well, to give you a Republican's viewpoint on the whole Trump Files case, I can't help but think "So What?"

That is not a republican viewpoint. That is a Trump supporter viewpoint. There are plenty of republicans who do not falsely equivocate these things. We have just come off a period where Trump attempted a bloody coup and likely sold national secrets. To distract from this monster's actions is to harm the country itself.

And not all viewpoints are equal. You could also try injecting opposing viewpoints about how global warming isn't real, but you would also get pushback for that, because these sorts of ideas exist solely to benefit the corrupt at the cost of innocent lives. And I would appreciate it if they weren't thrown around as if they will bring something useful to the table.

Maybe next time, lead with "lets steelman their argument" and end with "and I think this is important to bring up because etc. etc."
« Last Edit: September 04, 2022, 06:05:37 pm by Micro102 »
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49542 on: September 04, 2022, 09:47:32 pm »

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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49543 on: September 05, 2022, 02:28:14 am »

I'm on the record here om bay12 as annoying people over Clinton's emails, because in my mind even if what she did was completely legal it was a hugely warning signly thing to do and ut really ought to be forbidden, especially if since post W. Bush's presidency it's become established routine (just think of all the senators, congressmen, and what-else-you-call-thems that might be abusing it too) – it's a looming threat to government insight.

I bring that up because I feel that makes me a reasonably less partisan voice when I say that no, really, what Clinton did is not nearly in the same league as stealing highly classified documents and likely selling them off to foreign countries and actors. And it boggles my mind that anyone would think that.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #49544 on: September 05, 2022, 04:57:37 am »

Legislation (or at least policy) always has to play catch-up.

As an example, I was once actually quite vociferous in ensuring that the (then quite fledgling) wifi technology should never be added to my company's network infrastructure, due to the nature of the corporate data that could be available (with a little effort, but somewhat less than also having to enter the building and finding a suitably-wired RJ45 outlet/cable in a meeting room, which was the accepted place for guest/visitor equipment to latch on). In hindsight, this was overkill (though WEP/authentication/etc was a bit primative and would not have necessarily have stopped an "insider outside" attack). But this was in light of people (regular desk-drones) contemplating bringing in their own wifi routers and tapping them into their own desk-outlets for... I forget why, because this was pre 'tablets', so maybe just company laptops needing one less cable (already provided) when sat for the whole day next to their parmanent desktop machine.... Well, aside from all the other issues we had to think about (yes, including the two reasons to protect against data on the laptops going missing), I felt that it was not worth the hassle, but I did do regular promiscuous wifi sweeps with a to make sure nobody had snuck anything into the area (and I think found a couple, though not sure my sweeps were foolproof) with a PenTest/Kali-like setup, as well as inserted strong "think hard before you allow this" statements into the Change Control guidances for the company.

A year or three or five after I left that company, I (somehow... can't imagine I had my laptop on me... my first Android tablet, perhaps?) had a chance to pass by their building and checked... They were broadcasting a corporate hotspot (seen a fair way away... and clearly corporate-branded, which I also would have railed against for obvious reasons, but...) so had clearly adopted the (now more mature) technology for the conveniences it held. Probably fully shored up with transmission authentication, server-mediated "lan-within-the-lan"/"internet tunnelling"/blah-de-blah, time-limited guest access codes, etc, though I didn't try to pentest beyond seeing what the 'front end' was that I could connect to.

But at least it wasn't the free-for-all that it could have been (and reportedly often was) in the early naive days. And whether or not the Clinton server was more vulnerable than it should have heen (by some arguments) and/or too personally secretive to hide the business of the government from the government (by others), it was clear to me that it was a 'bolt on' solution that may not have used exactly the right degree of paranoia in its application, for the developing case-use that it was. Only a huge problem if it was significantly adrift (in how it was used/had to be used) without competent back-room updates/tweaks/etc keeping pace with (or a step ahead of, where possible) the capabilities of 'the bad guys'. And I can't tell you you well or badly they did that.

As a person responsible for various aspects of network security, I always felt uncomfortable that I was basically able to do anything to the network under my control (and, should I so wish, I could have rewritten aspects of the local archives too, and even gradually altered the off-site storage versions under the guise of normal operations) so my biggest concern for Clinton's setup was more whether those who maintained the corporate hardware outwith the auspices of the government were fully screened, or at least none were bad actors who found themselves with unprecedented access way beyond any nominal security clearance level they should have needed. (Not that it being an in-house government operation would necessarily have been any better. Economies of scale and the lack of expertise could make the latter very much an Amateur Hour attempt, when the outsourced resource probably at least benefitted from business-levels of good repute.)


But, the initial point is, we saw Obama having to ditch his Blackberry, in light of realisation of security concerns (yet Trump seemed to always have a 'smart' phone at hand, unsure what mitigations the adults in the room made him adhere to) and government data has probably flowed across more corporate systems than merely Hillary's, the question is how much (and how strong) the encapsulation is in everything from one-time file encryption through to multi-wrapped VPNing to keep the contents (or the mere fact of a transmission from A to B) secure from your country's enemies/not-entirely-friends. It can't be all done at the famed NSA levels of encryption, obfuscation and/or misdirection. And time will maybe tell whether worse issues of security have already happened but not yet heen made known (or even internally discovered).

/awaits news that George Washington once dropped an unsecured USB key in a tavern...
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