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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4201939 times)

Jopax

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47325 on: December 25, 2021, 06:29:51 pm »

Nah, they're clearly pulling back so they can have a better run up for the invasion. Gotta have a nice proper running start for these kinds of things, otherwise you run out of steam before you're halfway to Berlin, and where's the fun in that :V
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47326 on: December 25, 2021, 07:30:30 pm »

What really happened that Santa captured them all and they are now on little helper duty at the North Pole.
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The_Explorer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47327 on: December 25, 2021, 08:38:38 pm »

10k?

What about all 100k+ of them (some reports suggesting up to 200k, and THEY ARE STILL MOVING TOWARD UKRAINE WITH MORE SUPPLIES and other things like tanks...artillery etc...). Not to mention there are some tweets suggesting china sent something over filled with a bunch of their troops, but this is not verified and may be fake...in any case...

With that said though...hopefully they start moving the vast majority of troops and equipment away and this is just the start.

That sums up my entire thoughts
« Last Edit: December 25, 2021, 08:42:44 pm by The_Explorer »
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Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47328 on: December 26, 2021, 01:40:14 am »

Maybe the Russian troops are just getting a holiday break?  Probably going right back there after the new year.

Actually, Russian Christmas is January 7.
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47329 on: December 27, 2021, 02:26:09 pm »

Hey so I had an idea. Hear me out.

A new electoral system where instead of voting for one person, you can vote for or against each person who's running.
For each candidate, their total approval (votes for minus votes against) is recorded as net voting power. For example, Jane Smith receives 5,532 + votes and 2,211 - votes, resulting in a total of 3,321. John Smith (no relation) gets 11,323 + votes and 10,026 - votes, resulting in a total of 1,297.
Those with the highest net voting power are appointed to a council, where they retain that NVP. If a bill comes up and Jane votes for it while John votes against it, her 3,321 votes outweigh his 1,297 votes. Either John needs to build a coalition of other controversial or minority groups, or it's not getting passed.

This is a strongly consensus-driven polity. Extreme positions are forced out, while those who are able to argue respectfully with the other side excel. Also, EVERY vote counts; first, gerrymandering is impossible, and second, the more votes past positive approval a candidate gets, the more powerful they are. Most importantly of all, every _single_ person in the government has at least a positive approval rating.

It works at small scales and large. I recommend that the size of the committees is something like the cube root of the population.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47330 on: December 27, 2021, 02:47:35 pm »

gerrymandering is impossible

And that is why it will likely never be implemented, sadly.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47331 on: December 27, 2021, 03:32:06 pm »

I assume that's upvote/downvote every single candidate. Are absentions possible? (Apart from not partaking at all in the voting, if you're not going all Australian.)

Are all, and only all, those with Net Positive results elected? Variable-sized chambers ahoy!

Not sure how this would work best with a definite single post requiring a single candidate voted in. Yes, the most net-positive, I suppose, or if there is no-one positive then R.O.N. is declared the winner.

But there's a different dimension of tactical voting, here. If I've got the right end of the right stick, a number of ways to 'spoil' things just by being party-political and going down the list trying to exclude everyone (no matter how reasonable) not entirely your own party. (It might end up in a total farce, but better a farce than a compromise, some might say!)


The big thing it has going for it is the novelty. I like that.
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47332 on: December 27, 2021, 07:07:50 pm »

EVERY vote counts

Not so sure about that.  How do the votes for a candidate who gets a negative NVP count?

More generally why not just go the tried and trusted recallable delegate model, where delegates are only empowered to vote act in a certain way on certain issues by the communities that they truly represent (and more generally function as messengers of the negotiations/discussions between diverse communities held in proxy by the delegates)?  Basically avoid voting unless necessary and don't empower an individual unless absolutely unavoidable.  Otherwise we end up with someone claiming a 'mandate' for whatever they choose on the grounds that they won a 'vote' on entirely unrelated matters (strength of an advertising campaign more often than not these days).
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Schmaven

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47333 on: December 27, 2021, 08:10:49 pm »

If the majority rules in the N.V.P. method, that sounds like it would have a high risk of populist candidates like Trump rising to positions of power.  Could be fun though ;)
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47334 on: December 27, 2021, 08:15:01 pm »

In an opposite to the "claiming a mandate". one organisation that I'm involved in has had to tell the regional delegates that no, they aren't "mandated to vote for <foo>, however much they personally dislike the idea...". That the regional vote about what the issue at hand is asking about is advisory and that they are free to vote how they think best represents the interests, even if that's contrary to the delegated wishes.

(This was most obvious with some very highly-frought issues where often the regional vote was on a knife-edge itself, and then the national vote ends up on a knife-edge, such that a single region having subtly shifted its majority viewpoint might have changed the national situation. That the regional vote was itself formed of the wishes raised up from the even more localised member-group votes, perhaps with the same issues, made a lot of people uncomfortable.)

Of course, this then makes the delegates far more important than merely being the conveyor of (one or two layers of) localised ideas. Send one who actually favours the thing that the sending committee does not (or vice-versa) and they may find themselves "swayed by the arguments" presented in the national gathering a little too easily. Conversely, a stick-in-the-mud who happens to agree with the feeling they 'represent' might be more reluctant. So (though I haven't seen signs of this yet, just other forms of 'politics' messing with the tree of administration from the top on down) it's maybe not just a matter of sending the delegates from last time (if they still wouldn't mind going again...) but factionalisation might matter deeply in such a meta-representational democracy.

Spoiler: Aside... (click to show/hide)

Anyway, it's complicated.


I always liked the idea of a vote that you could place upon anyone you wanted, whenever you wanted, changing whenever you wanted. Anyone with votes for themselves would pass these alongside their own personal vote for whoever they voted for (save for any votes that would end up 'looping', being previously the vote-target's or their (other) passed-on ones, which would stop being passed just before counting again on the tab of 'prior host'[1]). Whoever ends up with the most un-passed votes (typically someone who considers themselves the better candidate who does not therefore pass their votes on - though the circular-voting-prevention-scheme might create interesting cases) gains the highest office. And so on down the ranks of personal-accumulation as required to fill the rest of any assembly.

Everyone is allowed to know where their vote ends up (otherwise their ability to transfer trust 'up the chain' would be somewhat less useful). It'd be nice if you can preserve the general secrecy of who votes for you (I can see some genuine problems enforcing that, of course) or even how many you personally 'control', for the usual anti-vote-buying/-forcing reasons.

This is of course a solution looking for a quite different problem, to the one suggested above. I could see it fitting more into a dystopia than a utopia (in the latter, it'd probably be pure demarchy, anyway, except where it's an actual benevolent-and-fair tyrant keeping the whole thing running single-handed) when it still contains too many of the problems that I duly admit still need ironing out of it.

No, it's not actual feudalism (as envisaged) as the intention is that you can swap your vote around (or retain it for your own candidacy) entirely at your own whim - as often and as much as would work for both the tabulating system and (probably more important) a sense of implementability. Perhaps there's a cooling-off period where a switched/(de)activated vote does not count towards regime-change purposes but puts a warning upon those you might be disengaging once it's an active change. With an additional transitional period related to the depth of change demanded by the uncooled changes as they filter through.

Have fun designing your own implementations. I have a number of such ideas myself, obviously, but until I know who I'd be ruining running via such a system I'm not exactly tied down to the precise configuration I'd consider most useful in the circumstances. ;)


[1] Though it might just be simpler to never allow (or remove, if acting in retrospect) the onward-voting upon anyone who sits in your own voting-previous chain.
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47335 on: December 27, 2021, 08:35:27 pm »

Better idea, we put a muderous AI based on the most dangerous psicopaths ever in an artifical body made of silice and... what do you mean is a movie?
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47336 on: December 27, 2021, 09:06:03 pm »

You mean like in the popular sci-fi story Don't Make The Torment Nexus?
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47337 on: December 28, 2021, 12:50:25 am »

In an opposite to the "claiming a mandate". one organisation that I'm involved in has had to tell the regional delegates that no, they aren't "mandated to vote for <foo>, however much they personally dislike the idea...". That the regional vote about what the issue at hand is asking about is advisory and that they are free to vote how they think best represents the interests, even if that's contrary to the delegated wishes.

(This was most obvious with some very highly-frought issues where often the regional vote was on a knife-edge itself, and then the national vote ends up on a knife-edge, such that a single region having subtly shifted its majority viewpoint might have changed the national situation. That the regional vote was itself formed of the wishes raised up from the even more localised member-group votes, perhaps with the same issues, made a lot of people uncomfortable.)

Seems to me that there are several issues here.  The major one, imo, being that the delegate is presumably 'elected' to vote on all issues rather than just a selection.  If that wasn't the case one immediate solution is for the delegate to resign their delegacy for that issue and let the regional group 'select' another. More deeply though this falls into the category of things which probably should not be voted on since it hangs on such a knife edge.  The instructions for the delegate therefore should be to make a procedural motion calling for the vote not to be put since the discussion around it is a long way from concluded.  This alllows for viewpoints, arguments, sentiments to be shuffled back and forth between the levels - the best delegate for this role, imo again, is the one able to carry this information in both directions with the introduction of the least bias or noise, regardless of their personal opinions.

Quote
Anyway, it's complicated.

Absolutely!

For me the framing of the matter as a 'better system of voting' misses (the more/most) important dimensions of the delegation of power.  Which is not to say that - voting being considered necessary at some point in the process - designing improved ways of voting is not useful.

Quote
Have fun designing your own implementations. I have a number of such ideas myself, obviously, but until I know who I'd be ruining running via such a system I'm not exactly tied down to the precise configuration I'd consider most useful in the circumstances. ;)

There's a quite well known view that not knowing who/where in a system one will end up is necessary to fairly evaluate the system itself.  :D
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47338 on: December 28, 2021, 08:04:36 am »

The major one, imo, being that the delegate is presumably 'elected' to vote on all issues rather than just a selection.  If that wasn't the case one immediate solution is for the delegate to resign their delegacy for that issue and let the regional group 'select' another.
In this circumstance, the sub-area groupings elect[1] delegates to the area-level meetings (i.e. local>regional and regional>national) and should[2] hold a meeting to 'instruct' (this precise term only recently removed) those delegates as to the wishes to convey on all items they are given notice of that need passing/otherwise.

For truly bewildering/unagreeable issues, there has always been the option to 'instruct' the delegates to only truly decide once they have heard (or asked) further details at their point of voting, exactly as it now clearly intended to do for it all. And it definitely was done to decide localised discussions had had the wrong end of the wrong stick and indeed flip their mandated intentions (as a delegation, or maybe as some individuals within that) once a different spin was raised in the floor-discussion just before the vote to overturn the previously considered decisions.


(Yes, I'm skirting the details - perhaps to a distracting abstraction! - to preserve the anonymity and ambiguity of this umbrella organisation. Technically someone else could decide their involvement in an organisation matches this scenario, but I'm betting upon it most of the time just being another one with much the same internal politics. I'll just say that it isn't a Union thing, nor actual Political Party business. Or both, in the case of one particular area of the political spectrum... ;) Oh, and it's pretty much not AmeriPol, really. It was intended as purely allegorical, before being expanded into a huge self-analysis of its own by way of my intentional abstraction of the scenario.)


Honestly, it's not exactly the roller-coaster ride that would attract fresh faces, I readipy admit, if described thusly. Maybe aspiring politicians (who have yet failed to get into actual politics) or barrack-room lawyers (though in the past there have been actual lawyers, barristers, other legally-trained individuals). I would say (and do, to those I think might get involved) the biggest boon for the everyman is to meet-n-greet similarly shanghaied/entangled people from beyond the usual area, get a feel for how things are/can be developing in this largely hidden world of regulative oversight and understand how some of the seemingly arbitrary things that happen... happen.



[1] In reality, ask if anybody (starting with last year's reps) is bothered, and very rarely get competing claims above the number places to fill. Trying to get 'new blood' into the system is difficult. The last time I saw our regional level get competitive was when a 'putsch' over a localised issue of policy and for one year there were a lot of 'the New Guard' and remnants of the old.

[2] Again, apathy happens. Mostly with local groups considering it beneath them/irrelevent to send their guys’n’gals to the regional level.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47339 on: December 28, 2021, 08:37:45 am »

a
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 06:50:38 am by dragdeler »
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