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[Kagus]

Another thing that makes firsts important is that it helps break the stigma of it happening at all, and makes it less outlandish of an idea for it to happen again.

Even if it's just a marginal change, Obama getting elected makes it slightly more possible for another black president to get elected. Same would be true for the first female president, first openly gay president etc.

Which, in turn, allows for more of a shift towards those marginalized groups getting representation.

[scriver]

If I remember correctly and hasn't assumed wrongly, Loud Whispers is part of several groups that could be considered historically marginalised. I'm not saying that makes you wrong, but you should probably read his post with that as context.

[Loud Whispers]

If I remember correctly and hasn't assumed wrongly, Loud Whispers is part of several groups that could be considered historically marginalised. I'm not saying that makes you wrong, but you should probably read his post with that as context.

yea but that's life I guess. It's why I always treat with skepticism people who speak of advancing whole communities but only advance their own careers; the Tory party and even the Labour party is full of "firsts" who speak so eloquently about how inspiring they are for breaking barriers and I'm just watching by the wayside thinking... Great. Now do something for someone besides yourself. We can acknowledge for example that Margaret Thatcher did smash all the misogynistic barriers in her way, whilst also acknowledging that she also smashed the UK's social housing system and labour protection rights which created the hell hole we live in today. History repeats itself; last London mayoral election we were either going to see a continuation of our first Muslim mayor or the advent of our first Black mayor and... They would still be subject to the same system which stagnates reform and ensures the majority of people continue to see their livelihoods evaporate. When he was campaigning, our first Muslim mayor showed so much promise by promising so much; yet after he's elected he falls victim to the same pressures which ensure every elected candidate spends the majority of their time campaigning instead of actually changing anything. He supported rent freezes, until he was elected and had to answer to property developers and foreign investors. He supported expanding the police force and being strong on crime, then decided after George Floyd protests that he opposed the police again, then when our murder rate reached a 10 year high he decided he loved being "tough on crime" again. And while he weighs in on impressive symbols of slaver statues being torn down and what flag waves where, everything which has gotten worse has continued to get worse. But at least he gave himself another salary raise & doubled his PR department budget so he can keep raking in six figures and keep getting reelected as the first^TM.

If I could tl;dr, it's that I believe history isn't made by great talents, it's that history makes great talents. If changing the people at the top doesn't change anything, then perhaps you should take a hatchet to the table, instead of playing musical chairs D:<

[Vector]

If I could tl;dr, it's that I believe history isn't made by great talents, it's that history makes great talents. If changing the people at the top doesn't change anything, then perhaps you should take a hatchet to the table, instead of playing musical chairs D:<

I don't disagree with you there.

[Starver]

I tend to think, of something like "the first <foo> to <bar> in the whole <tump-and-tumpty-tump> years of a insititution's history" something like "Great, but doesn't that mean more about past exclusionary practices[1], and it never guarantees further breakthroughs.

Mrs Thatcher was hardly a poster'girl' for female PMs. She did not (by inclination and/or by the limitations of the available pool of possible 'talent') have much diversity in her cabinet ('the vegetables'), certainly no direct encouragement for "the next female PM"[2] to come about.

Similarly, those who hated Obama aren't going to quickly support "the Republican Obama", whichever one that may be. If Hillary had become POTUS, it probably would not have helped womankind much (after the fact, even if she helped during).

It might be helpful for <insert a different unprecidented president here> to have "already had a black guy", etc, so maybe someone openly gay/whatever could take their own Great Glass Elevator ride to the top, as being more novel than "yet another of what we just had".

And fit all that into https://xkcd.com/1122/ and https://xkcd.com/1122/ if you like!


[1] Implicit or explicit. It could have been that women (say) were barred from a given position, or just that there were no women given enough credence by the lower parts of the structural hierarchy (e.g. never even being apprenticable to that trade, never being free from home-duties to get involved in studies, or being barred from direct involvement in politics as a side-effect to a rule about personal wealth that was really the fault of a misongynistic marriage/inheritance-law) that meant that there was never going to be a plausible candidate (for Guild Master, Chancellor Of The University or Leader Of The Party, to continue those themes) even before any willingness of the nearly-top-men to appoint a woman to the toppest-of-the-top job becomes a factor.

[2] Whether May got a boost to her chances for not being the first, or even took heart at Maggie having at least carefully cut a hole in the glass ceiling, doesn't stop us realising that there were no high-ranking women in UK politics (already a low number, with a number of competant candidates) who achieved the same feat so long as Mrs T was alive. Though May's somewhat dithered and issue-troubled Premiership shows it not to be the case, the fear of another Iron Lady (from all sides of the political spectrum) might have worked against all potential successors.

[anewaname]

One of the values from there being a precedent (first black president, etc), is that the story-tellers can no longer say "there will never be a ....".

That guy who is good at being a leader and bringing value and reassurance to his group of friends, he might also be a die-hard racist who is telling his friends how useless those colored people are. He is one of those that could have been perpetuating the "there will never be a .... because they are stupid/lazy/etc" stories. He is one of those that could have lost face with friends, and might have joined the effort that brought in Trump.

Precedents like Obama, they force the story-tellers to change their stories, and they force some story-tellers to take action, because the story-tellers lost power over others when their stories were debunked.

[martinuzz]

Joe Biden just promised to defend Taiwan if China attacks it. In an interview with CNN, he stated that he feels an obligation to do so.

[Lord Shonus]

That is longstanding US policy, so restating it is not likely to have much effect.

[martinuzz]

It hs never been stated this clearly before though

[LordBaal]

Also many people outside US see Biden as a weakling with senile dementia (what the fuck happens to him when speaking sometimes?). There were stronk rumors of him leaving Taiwan alone out of fear or carelessness or something.

Him outright declaring his back up to Taiwan helps to clear things out or give him a better outlook I think.

[Duuvian]

If one were to find oneself in position as a "first" they should also remember I think it was Queen Victoria, who was a woman ruler. I read in a Bathroom Reader once that it may have been she had to fit in with the men's opinions as a matter of both safety and efficacy in governorship. I don't know much more on the subject than that, but it bears pondering if one were to find themself in such a "first" or other unusual position; of how much of the individual remains after being put through the forms required to be acceptable to one's own deputies.

[Loud Whispers]

That is longstanding US policy, so restating it is not likely to have much effect.

What is different is that before China didn't have the capacity to attempt a successful assault. Now it does and Xi Jinping says he'd consider a military assault on Taiwan, so Joe Biden reiterating the policy when it actually would cost the USA something is useful where before it was a policy which cost the USA nothing

[Starver]

If one were to find oneself in position as a "first" they should also remember I think it was Queen Victoria, who was a woman ruler.

Not really a 'first'. Elizabeth I of England/Ireland (unconsorted) took over from Mary Tudor (m. Philip of Spain) and arguably you could include Lady Jane Grey (immediately before) or Empress Matilda, but each under different contesting circumstances. In Mary (a different one!) Queen Of Scots was contemporaneous in the bit of the later-formed UK not covered by those England(+Wales)/Ireland claims.

[Duuvian]

Yup, that's why I used quotes. The quotes implied, or at least the way I intended, that it was more circumspect example rather than something I looked at wikipedia for to make sure I picked the correct of two choices (whether she was the first Queen).

In other words, you have bested me and I award you 1 commendation for doing it right.

EDIT: There are lots of Internet Awards existing a search tells me, so I changed it to a more vague commendation.

Truth be told I was thinking of the television show At Midnight, in which a wise comic actor won the internet for a day by knowing internet related data such as memes and politics. As Chris Hardwick nearly controlled television for a short period, the show had to be taken down; however it seems circumstances have changed and now they could bring it back again maybe. An odd derailment but it explains the edit I guess.

points

[Frumple]

Also many people outside US see Biden as a weakling with senile dementia (what the fuck happens to him when speaking sometimes?).

Far as I'm aware, the big thing going on with him and speaking oddities is that the dude just has a stutter. Between that and being old, it does stuff like what you see.

... anyway, actually living with people with dementia these days, my worries over biden actually having it has honestly fucking cratered. He doesn't act like someone dealing with it, basically at all. He's old, but dementia hasn't set in at all, to all appearances.

If you wanted to see what a dementia addled speaking pattern actually looks like in the wild, you'd be better off looking to one of trump's rantings -- the sliding around subjects, repetition, insistence they know something or other off the wall, divorced from reality shit is legitimately dementia 101.