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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4458547 times)

Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31560 on: August 12, 2019, 11:17:16 am »

My customer service skills are mostly limited to "strangling this asshole would probably not be a wise idea". Of course, I'm a janitor, so that goes with the territory.
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Magistrum

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31561 on: August 12, 2019, 01:03:57 pm »

On that "small talk" front, one of the girls in my store was tolerating an old creep hitting on her, and then talked about it later with me and the others after the creep left. She still isn't sure about asking annoying costumers to leave, but we have given her the blessing to go ahead and ban those kinds when they show up.
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31562 on: August 12, 2019, 02:39:36 pm »

So there's apparently a leaked draft of an executive order to allegedly "censor the internet".

Supposedly, it's meant to combat corporate censorship of "conservative speech" (which according to research isn't happening) by some tweaking of the interpretation of §230 of the CDA by the FCC. And everyone is running around claiming it's government censorship.

Disclaimer: Fuck Ajit Pai. I do not trust the FCC or any of the bought regulatory bodies to not screw this up or abuse it. Also not a lawyer.

But effectively, to my knowledge, it comes down on narrowing the protections for "good samaritan" content moderation.

Code: [Select]
(c) Protection for “Good Samaritan” blocking and screening of offensive material

    (1) Treatment of publisher or speaker

        No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.

    (2) Civil liability

        No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—

            (A) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy,
                excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or

            (B) any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or others the technical means to restrict access to material described in paragraph (1).

CDA §230

The term "otherwise objectionable" in §230(c)(2)(A) effectively gives private entities free reign on how they moderate their platforms and what content can go up there. That is, it enables corporate censorship, to my understanding. The other terms do it as well, but to an obviously lesser extent.

Narrowing down the interpretation of this can become problematic if biased (it's FCC so obviously it will), but I object to calling it censorship, since it only limits the ability of the private entity to curate their publicly-accessible platform.

At worst, it's compelled speech. And even that isn't quite correct since they're not obligated to provide the servers for everyone's speech, they'd only be obligated to be "blind" to the content of the speech that gets posted (to the extent of the rules of the FCC, anything beyond is "fair game").

Furthermore, compelled speech would imply that the private entity is the "speaker", which I believe §230(c)(1) already forbids. So it's really about the freedom of association of the private entity vs the many users' freedom of speech on the publicly-accessible platform that is willingly provided by the private entity.

This echoes the thought of treating platforms as something akin to a common carrier. Common carriers were not forced to deliver goods, but when they did offer the service then their ability to deny delivery was limited.

ISPs are, or at least were, treated as common carriers. And aside from the fact that data is stored on servers, platforms are functionally identical. They deliver data from users to users. In fact, ISPs regularly store data as well, primarily for caching and especially for P2P traffic.

So in theory, if platforms get treated as something akin to a common carrier, then the ability to curate can be limited. The only problem is defining those limits, which in my mind should be strictly technical (spam, bots, egregiously off-topic or egregiously-wrongly categorized/tagged discussion, etc). It should be less about whether the private entity finds the content objectionable or not.

But again, this would be better handled by an act of Congress than an EO to the FCC, nevermind the inevitable 1A challenge.

Am I wrong thinking this?
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31563 on: August 12, 2019, 03:17:49 pm »

I.... don't really see where this changes anything? On the surface, this basically says that, for example, you can't sue Facebook for taking down your post because they have a problem with it. Or, for instance, Toady can delete posts because they violate forum rules. This immediately makes me suspicious, because if it seems to change nothing it probably changes everything subtly.

This certainly sounds like it's vague enough to cause trouble. Do you have a link to the full draft?
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31564 on: August 12, 2019, 03:21:52 pm »

I.... don't really see where this changes anything? On the surface, this basically says that, for example, you can't sue Facebook for taking down your post because they have a problem with it. Or, for instance, Toady can delete posts because they violate forum rules. This immediately makes me suspicious, because if it seems to change nothing it probably changes everything subtly.

This certainly sounds like it's vague enough to cause trouble. Do you have a link to the full draft?
No, and that's an issue. None of the news sites (both left-leaning and right-leaning) I've seen present one, only a summary. Clickbait-sense is tingling.

EDIT: Effectively, the EO (based on summary) would allow people to sue Facebook for taking down content if the takedown wasn't protected by §230(c)(2), which the FCC would have greater reign in interpreting. Worst case, I imagine, is that the FCC will rule that the takedown of right-wing speech is not protected while takedown of left-wing speech is protected or vice versa depending on the party in charge.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 03:28:50 pm by da_nang »
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31565 on: August 12, 2019, 03:52:41 pm »

Hmm. Well, to spitball, with the user-specified portion it could be interpreted as "If i find something offensive in any way, you have to prevent me from seeing it, ergo restrict it as stated".

While a stupid concept in and of itself, if this is a federally-enforced concept then you'd need to have some kind of federal bureau that deals with it. Said bureau would undoubtedly have a large bias towards the current administration. At present, you can bet your ass that Trump's Dept. Of Social Media Rightness and Helpfulness or whatever the hell he'd call it would ignore conservative complaints.

But that's not actually possible as it stands, the federal government would need to be able to basically exert direct control of social media. If I was the type of person that believes the federal government is an blackened cadre of super-villainous billionaires that exhibit the inescapable evils of humanity run amok, I'd say they would use this law as a bludgeon to weaken private companies' hold on social media via action taken due to non-compliance.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31566 on: August 12, 2019, 05:46:44 pm »

Goddamn Ajit Pai. I'm sure he's the most likely federal employee to eventually go down for corruption

Here's an interesting story
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/19/07/15/236255/ajit-pais-new-gift-to-cable-companies-would-kill-local-fees-and-rules

Ajit Pai recently wanted to put in rules preventing local towns, cites, states from setting fees on broadband services from cable companies, but at the bottom of the article, it points out that Ajit Pai had previously claimed that the FCC lacked authority over those exact same services as part of his net neutrality repeal. I guess they only lack authority up until the point that someone inconveniences the cable companies then the FCC comes out firing all guns.

Playergamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31567 on: August 12, 2019, 06:02:57 pm »

it's been, wow...almost exactly two years since I left Bay12. I don't know if anyone still remembers me, I mostly hung out in FG&RP. Bay12 was a pretty big part of my life until I left due to, well, mostly posts in this thread and ones like it. I was a sad, shitty reactionary in 2016-2017 after falling down a very dark hole very fast. Honestly, leaving Bay12 and disengaging from the people here probably slowed my recovery a lot. I'm better now. Still not good, but better. I don't think I can undo the things I laughed at and believed, but I'm trying.

I don't mean to clog up this thread or anything, but I mean, it's where I did most of my ick. I'm probably not coming back, but it just felt weird vanishing into thin air after so much...low-level suckiness and trolling. You're good people. I'm sorry.

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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31568 on: August 12, 2019, 06:15:36 pm »

Hello please stay!
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31569 on: August 12, 2019, 06:46:05 pm »

it's been, wow...almost exactly two years since I left Bay12. I don't know if anyone still remembers me, I mostly hung out in FG&RP. Bay12 was a pretty big part of my life until I left due to, well, mostly posts in this thread and ones like it. I was a sad, shitty reactionary in 2016-2017 after falling down a very dark hole very fast. Honestly, leaving Bay12 and disengaging from the people here probably slowed my recovery a lot. I'm better now. Still not good, but better. I don't think I can undo the things I laughed at and believed, but I'm trying.

I don't mean to clog up this thread or anything, but I mean, it's where I did most of my ick. I'm probably not coming back, but it just felt weird vanishing into thin air after so much...low-level suckiness and trolling. You're good people. I'm sorry.
You can stay, new voices have new thoughts to contribute
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31570 on: August 12, 2019, 07:04:50 pm »

I mean, I'm fairly sure that the words "Let's see how Trump does" escaped my lips at one point.

These people still put up with my bullshit. You're probz fine.

In other news, stock prices are continuing to decline, attributed to China's retaliation against Trump's trade war.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31571 on: August 12, 2019, 07:17:47 pm »

Hmm. Well, to spitball, with the user-specified portion it could be interpreted as "If i find something offensive in any way, you have to prevent me from seeing it, ergo restrict it as stated".

I think you misunderstood. The quote that da_nang provided was from a clause in USC §230 that the executive order would supposedly weaken, not from the executive order itself. The executive order would make it harder for online platforms to censor their users' content, to combat supposed online censorship of conservatives. Or, at least, so we've heard.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 07:21:09 pm by bloop_bleep »
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Cheesy Honkers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31572 on: August 12, 2019, 07:33:39 pm »

I mean, I'm fairly sure that the words "Let's see how Trump does" escaped my lips at one point.

These people still put up with my bullshit. You're probz fine.

In other news, stock prices are continuing to decline, attributed to China's retaliation against Trump's trade war.

It's also worth noting that tariffs and currency wars are how we triggered the Great Depression.

Currency wars in particular, since no one can stay neutral in a currency war.
The currency war during the Great Depression was a result rather than the cause of it, if I remember correctly.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31573 on: August 12, 2019, 07:37:29 pm »

It's also worth noting that tariffs and currency wars are how we triggered the Great Depression.

That is clearly an enormous oversimplification. I would caution against use of words like "triggered" that imply a single cause for complicated matters like these.
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31574 on: August 12, 2019, 07:52:56 pm »

something something match sticks something
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