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[wierd]

Brain changes are not brain damage.

Compare--

Traumatic head injury is brain damage.

PTSD is a brain CHANGE.

Both cause very long lasting, permanent changes in how a person behaves and views the world.


Likewise, having children causes hormonally induced brain changes that alter a person's perceptions, and behaviors, in ways that are readily exploited.

It is indeed, "Quite natural".  Humans evolved to do this.  Humans that underwent the re-patterning had higher infant survival rates than those that did not. 

Again, the same is also true of PTSD. Humans that can be reprogrammed in this manner are more likely to be hyper-vigillant against sources of harm to themselves or their communities, and so group survival increases.

However, simply because something is natural does not make it ideal.  In the current climate of very large human populations and looming climate change, coupled with dangerous politicians with the equivalent of an "easy button" for a large percentage of the population, it's damn alarming, and needs to be addressed.

Denialist nonsense like, to quote your article, "The researchers are careful to stress that this evidence may be correlative, not causative"?

Because of course worrying about another human being that you love and are responsible for as well as having less time for yourself makes you less "happy". That really goes without saying - and bringing it up like it's somehow a huge deal shows that you are exactly the kind of immature and self-centered person I talked about above.

But it's also possible to be loving and affectionate towards them without brain damage.  It's pretty damn logical, even.

Presumably/hopefully it's the product of a loving relationship.

I'd bet you'd find similar "brain damage" happening to people who fall in love, even.

No, denialist as in, "I AM NOT THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM, YOU ARE! WAAAAA!" and or "Until you have kids of your own, you will never understand!"

which your above post exemplifies.

It is logically predicated on a false precondition; That people who refuse to have children are selfish. This is patently untrue, but you cannot accept it, and instead suffer the backfire effect.

You are correct that repatterning happens when people fall in love, however, the severity of the trauma caused by loss of a partner vs loss of a child is not anywhere in the same ballpark.

The degree of repatterning from having children is fucking extensive.

[scriver]

Don't try to repaint your choice of words as being neutral or "scientific" when it clearly was not. You didn't use "brain changes" as being a clinical term, you used it as a synonym to "having their brains scrambled".

[Il Palazzo]

@wierd
Technical correctness or lack thereof aside, you still come off as patronising and holier-than-thou. I can't fathom how that's a healthy thing.

[wierd]

PTSD scambles people brains too.

I liken them to each other, because they both have hormonal causes, and have comparable levels of impact on behavior of the individual.


And there you go with the denialism again.

Yes, I am fucking patronizing, but I am also very very very much tired of the treatment I get from people that have children, and then fuck up the world.

[SalmonGod]

It is logically predicated on a false precondition; That people who refuse to have children are selfish. This is patently untrue, but you cannot accept it, and instead suffer the backfire effect.

For the record, I don't believe this at all.  I totally support anyone's choice not to have children.  Not just on the grounds that nobody has a responsibility to have children they don't want, and should not be pressured to.  But also because I'm on board with scaling back of population being a good idea.

But if you want to talk about what makes people unhappy, I'll tell you what makes parents really unhappy and is the reason I'm so sensitive to when people speak hatefully of children.

Because there is a crushing pressure these days to keep your kids out of any part of the public that is not specifically designated for them, and if you do, to make sure they don't behave like children.  If you take kids to a restaurant that's not kid-targeted fast food, half the place will glare at you for ruining their evening *even if the kids behave ideally*.  If you go to a store and your kid acts out, it's guaranteed that someone nearby will loudly complain about lack of discipline *even if it's obvious that the kid is having a reaction to being disciplined*.  You can't let kids play outside freely anymore, not just because of fear culture, but because there will be kid-hating people in the neighborhood who will refuse to tolerate their open presence in the area.  I've had people snap and yell at me and my family about my kids when they were holding my hand, hardly moving or making a noise.  They were just pissed off to have to be in the presence of them.

It makes it way more fucking difficult than it should be to raise them into healthy adults.  Having children would be much happier without having to deal with such bullshit.

[wierd]

Don't get me wrong here, my beef is not with people that are parents, (in totality), it is with people who are parents, but willfully refuse to accept that their status as parents means they have had mental changes that make them predisposed to dangerous biases that politicians and media moguls exploit for vulgar reasons, and so fail to account for those biases, to the detriment of all of society.


Children are what they are, and yes-- they cause disturbances.  This is to be expected.  Yes, there is indeed a backlash against having children in public place, where they cause disturbances to other people.


However, any social dynamic is a give and take between all members of the society; The same biases I mention above apply here, because parents are less able to determine if or when their child ceases being "an adorable scamp" and has crossed into "Childzilla" territory. (due to the afore mentioned neural repatterning.)

This is comparable to a person with PTSD being paranoid about situations to the point where they cause disruption, not realizing they are being overly paranoid, and thus making no conscious effort to stop being so.

In both cases, they need reminding from a more objective outside perspective. 

I have simply stopped being nice about it, because the degree of "niceness" has no impact on the behavior in question. In some sense, I suppose I have PTSD caused by being constantly exposed to parents and their children. (and it makes me into an asshole.)

In the case of parents, even a gentle "hey uhm.. Your kid?" is met with "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY PARENTING!!"

It does not matter that the kid in question is performing a russian dance on the centerpiece at the 5 star restaurant.

[Naturegirl1999]

Don't try to repaint your choice of words as being neutral or "scientific" when it clearly was not. You didn't use "brain changes" as being a clinical term, you used it as a synonym to "having their brains scrambled".

Brain change is just that, a change in the brain. The poster didn’t mean brain damage. Brain change is not equal to brain damage. They simply meant that the brain undergoes change upon having children. Stop putting words in other peoples’ mouths.

Denialist nonsense like, to quote your article, "The researchers are careful to stress that this evidence may be correlative, not causative"?

Because of course worrying about another human being that you love and are responsible for as well as having less time for yourself makes you less "happy". That really goes without saying - and bringing it up like it's somehow a huge deal shows that you are exactly the kind of immature and self-centered person I talked about above.

But it's also possible to be loving and affectionate towards them without brain damage.  It's pretty damn logical, even.

Presumably/hopefully it's the product of a loving relationship.

I'd bet you'd find similar "brain damage" happening to people who fall in love, even.

The person never said brain damage, you did. The person merely said brain changes.

[smjjames]

Don't get me wrong here, my beef is not with people that are parents, (in totality), it is with people who are parents, but willfully refuse to accept that their status as parents means they have had mental changes that make them predisposed to dangerous biases that politicians and media moguls exploit for vulgar reasons, and so fail to account for those biases, to the detriment of all of society.


Children are what they are, and yes-- they cause disturbances.  This is to be expected.  Yes, there is indeed a backlash against having children in public place, where they cause disturbances to other people.


However, any social dynamic is a give and take between all members of the society; The same biases I mention above apply here, because parents are less able to determine if or when their child ceases being "an adorable scamp" and has crossed into "Childzilla" territory. (due to the afore mentioned neural repatterning.)

This is comparable to a person with PTSD being paranoid about situations to the point where they cause disruption, not realizing they are being overly paranoid, and thus making no conscious effort to stop being so.

In both cases, they need reminding from a more objective outside perspective. 

I have simply stopped being nice about it, because the degree of "niceness" has no impact on the behavior in question. In some sense, I suppose I have PTSD caused by being constantly exposed to parents and their children. (and it makes me into an asshole.)

In the case of parents, even a gentle "hey uhm.. Your kid?" is met with "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY PARENTING!!"

It does not matter that the kid in question is performing a russian dance on the centerpiece at the 5 star restaurant.

This thread is moving into 'Childzilla' territory.

[wierd]

Don't get me wrong here, my beef is not with people that are parents, (in totality), it is with people who are parents, but willfully refuse to accept that their status as parents means they have had mental changes that make them predisposed to dangerous biases that politicians and media moguls exploit for vulgar reasons, and so fail to account for those biases, to the detriment of all of society.


Children are what they are, and yes-- they cause disturbances.  This is to be expected.  Yes, there is indeed a backlash against having children in public place, where they cause disturbances to other people.


However, any social dynamic is a give and take between all members of the society; The same biases I mention above apply here, because parents are less able to determine if or when their child ceases being "an adorable scamp" and has crossed into "Childzilla" territory. (due to the afore mentioned neural repatterning.)

This is comparable to a person with PTSD being paranoid about situations to the point where they cause disruption, not realizing they are being overly paranoid, and thus making no conscious effort to stop being so.

In both cases, they need reminding from a more objective outside perspective. 

I have simply stopped being nice about it, because the degree of "niceness" has no impact on the behavior in question. In some sense, I suppose I have PTSD caused by being constantly exposed to parents and their children. (and it makes me into an asshole.)

In the case of parents, even a gentle "hey uhm.. Your kid?" is met with "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY PARENTING!!"

It does not matter that the kid in question is performing a russian dance on the centerpiece at the 5 star restaurant.

This thread is moving into 'Childzilla' territory.

It all descended from the furor over Biden whispering something to, and then kissing, a young child.

The reaction that he is "Clearly awful!", without knowing details, is exactly the kind of bias I am referring to.  Kissing babies is both a popularity stunt, but also a hot button direct to knives and pitchforks, when it comes to parents.

It boils down to which response is given favor at that exact moment---

"Creepy old man touching a child"

or

"Look, he's a natural care giver, and will understand and offer support and aid in child rearing for the masses."


As opposed to my view, which is:

"Oh look, he was pandering to a demographic with uncontrolled biases, just like every other politician."

and the subsequent derail into how I am clearly some selfish asshole because I dont like babies, and would never willingly kiss one.

[scriver]

Don't try to repaint your choice of words as being neutral or "scientific" when it clearly was not. You didn't use "brain changes" as being a clinical term, you used it as a synonym to "having their brains scrambled".

Brain change is just that, a change in the brain. The poster didn’t mean brain damage. Brain change is not equal to brain damage. They simply meant that the brain undergoes change upon having children. Stop putting words in other peoples’ mouths.

Denialist nonsense like, to quote your article, "The researchers are careful to stress that this evidence may be correlative, not causative"?

Because of course worrying about another human being that you love and are responsible for as well as having less time for yourself makes you less "happy". That really goes without saying - and bringing it up like it's somehow a huge deal shows that you are exactly the kind of immature and self-centered person I talked about above.

But it's also possible to be loving and affectionate towards them without brain damage.  It's pretty damn logical, even.

Presumably/hopefully it's the product of a loving relationship.

I'd bet you'd find similar "brain damage" happening to people who fall in love, even.

The person never said brain damage, you did. The person merely said brain changes.

"I never said that parents have brain damage! I just heavily inferred it through tone and message!"

Don't get me wrong here, my beef is not with people that are parents, (in totality), it is with people who are parents, but willfully refuse to accept that their status as parents means they have had mental changes that make them predisposed to dangerous biases that politicians and media moguls exploit for vulgar reasons, and so fail to account for those biases, to the detriment of all of society.

I don't think you had a point at all, I think you saw the mention of children and just had to spew the bike of your hatred of them and are now retroactively coming up with reasons for it. Just like how you backtracked to "I'm only using a clinical term brain change" even though everyone can see between the lines that you clearly think of it as brain damage.

[SalmonGod]

Horrible parents with blinders to their own kid's fault are a thing, yes. 

But recognizing that your kid is being Childzilla and simply being unable to do anything about it at that specific moment is also a thing.  It's going to happen.  You have to juggle a lot of shit as a parent, and you simply cannot win every battle.  You can't just drop what you're doing and go somewhere for a time out, or give up completely and leave every time your kid misbehaves in public.  Sometimes you must even tolerate some misbehavior to the abject horror of every present witness, because you have to get something done and if you prompted a temper tantrum with discipline then the horror of witnessing bystanders would be even worse and you also wouldn't get the thing done.  Etc Etc Etc

Adults without children often fail to manage JUST THEIR OWN juggling act of obligations and schedules against their personal limitations of time/energy/emotional state.  An adult can explain when life is being hard on them and they're struggling, and generally receive understanding. 

An adult with children has to juggle their own, AND their child's.  But when those struggles involve a child, everyone judges.  Like juuuuuuudges.

I can have a rough day at work or show up late to a social event, and then apologize with an explanation like I'm struggling with a sleep disorder or I got held up by traffic or whatever.

But if my kid cries in the store, a kid-hater doesn't give the slightest shit if I explain "They wanted this toy, but I said no.  That's what they're reacting to, and they're emotional because they're tired.  There's no use in further discipline, other than taking them home.  But I need to get these errands done.  So I have no choice but to suffer this embarrassment and the hassle of physically dragging them around a little longer.  Sorry to bother you."  Kid-hater doesn't care.  They will judge.  Circumstances don't matter.  No child of THEIRS would EVER behave in such a way, and they would be so responsible that they could never find themselves in such a situation.  They shouldn't have to suffer so horribly the sight and sound of this childzilla blemishing their perfect world of prim and proper adults doing adult things because of your problems.  How selfish of you to bring your parent-exclusive problems into a public space to disturb others.

Yeah, that type of attitude does make someone an asshole.  And the communication goes both ways.  Because over time, trying fruitlessly to appease such people just turns into "you're not a parent - you won't understand."  Because it's not worth the energy.  No degree of "niceness" has any impact on the behavior in question.

[wierd]

Scriver, take a deep breath, go outside, and listen to the birds for awhile.

You are clearly very angry; I expect this. It is what I have come to expect. I do not blame you.  However, you are being needlessly hostile here.


At no point did I imply that the brain repatterning that happens with parrenthood is brain damage.  You will find that I very carefully clarified this, when it was brought up.  "scrambled" is a bit of a loaded word, but what else would you call a phenomenon that makes people stop doing things they once cared about, drop all of their hopes and dreams, drop every ambition they ever had, and then subject everyone they know to a constant deluge of how wonderful their child is, despite the radical change in their living conditions, circumstance, and emotional well-being?

If it was caused by drugs, it would get an intervention.

Because it's babies, people ignore it. 

They shouldn't.  It's harmful to not just the parents, but also to everyone else.   The issue is a trigger for me, because I am often the brunt on the "YOU'RE STRANGE AND DEVIANT!" laser gun that inevitably shows up when the topic of these biases, and how they are abused by political and monied interests comes up, by people like myself, who have no desire what so ever to have children. (and especially so, since I have no sexual attraction to begin with that might predispose me toward being  parent accidentally.)

In short, I have trigger issues with this, in much the same ways a gay person does when implied derrogatory things are stated about them. I am not deviant, nor am I selfish. I simply have no desire for children, and the patterning process has no hold over me. When I say I cannot fathom why somebody would want to kiss a baby, I mean it literally. I really do not understand.  Instead of being angry and vindictive, maybe be understanding?

The "kissing babies" thing is a thing, and effective. If it was not, politicians would not engage in it.

The narrative that Biden is a creepy uncle, is the product of prior politicized rhetoric about him being inappropriate with women, getting crossed with the above PR stunt, resulting in backlash.

[Dorsidwarf]

Don't try to repaint your choice of words as being neutral or "scientific" when it clearly was not. You didn't use "brain changes" as being a clinical term, you used it as a synonym to "having their brains scrambled".

Brain change is just that, a change in the brain. The poster didn’t mean brain damage. Brain change is not equal to brain damage. They simply meant that the brain undergoes change upon having children. Stop putting words in other peoples’ mouths.

Denialist nonsense like, to quote your article, "The researchers are careful to stress that this evidence may be correlative, not causative"?

Because of course worrying about another human being that you love and are responsible for as well as having less time for yourself makes you less "happy". That really goes without saying - and bringing it up like it's somehow a huge deal shows that you are exactly the kind of immature and self-centered person I talked about above.

But it's also possible to be loving and affectionate towards them without brain damage.  It's pretty damn logical, even.

Presumably/hopefully it's the product of a loving relationship.

I'd bet you'd find similar "brain damage" happening to people who fall in love, even.

The person never said brain damage, you did. The person merely said brain changes.

"I never said that parents have brain damage! I just heavily inferred it through tone and message!"

Don't get me wrong here, my beef is not with people that are parents, (in totality), it is with people who are parents, but willfully refuse to accept that their status as parents means they have had mental changes that make them predisposed to dangerous biases that politicians and media moguls exploit for vulgar reasons, and so fail to account for those biases, to the detriment of all of society.

I don't think you had a point at all, I think you saw the mention of children and just had to spew the bike of your hatred of them and are now retroactively coming up with reasons for it. Just like how you backtracked to "I'm only using a clinical term brain change" even though everyone can see between the lines that you clearly think of it as brain damage.

Well I think you're a crab who's secretly trying to infiltrate our forums in order to trap us all in people-sized crab cages, so there.

[scriver]

1, I told you that in confidence, dammit

2, That is clearly not the same level of inference unless you are the kind of person who thinks it is impossible to learn anything from the written word apart from the literal words themselves.

[wierd]

You can deny that they are the same, but that does not make it so, Scriver.

@ Salmon

Again, there has been a rather profound change in the perceived necessity of having children, which has shifted the majority demographic, and has changed the societal calculus, in regard to "Children in public places."

At one point, people without children were a radical minority, and they were basically told to STFU, regularly. (With implications that you were weird and deviant for not fawning over other people's children destroying everything in sight.)

This has shifted in recent years, as the number of people putting off marriage and child rearing has increased due to financial and societal pressures shifting.  Now, there is a larger number of people who do not have children, and do not desire children (and are not predisposed to finding children adorable.)

I get that you are just a person who has to make things work, when they realistically cant, and that this inevitably means spectacular failures in full view of the public. However, the judgemental behaviors your cite are really just the mirrored image of what childless people have endured for much longer, and been told to STFU over.  (Basically, you can just ignore any notion that you will ever be free of other people's kids, or other people's insistence that you HAVE to help them with their kids, because you have all the free time!) [EG, this is the converse to "It takes a village to raise a child."] Raising the assertion that  "no, those are not my kids, I had no part in making them, I am not responsible for them, and I just want some place to be in quiet." is/was seen as "Insufferably selfish!"

This has parallels with smokers, and the shift in demographic away from "Most people smoke" to "Few people smoke", and the shift toward "You have to smoke outside."

I am not that judgmental about kids acting up in the store.  Kids are what they are. If they go "Daddy, I WANT CANDY! CANDY CANDY CANDY!" and you say "No, we are buying groceries so your mommy can cook good dinners!" and they respond with a wail and a cry, I understand.

What I do not accept, is when the kid jumps on the cart, upends its contents, and then tears into the nearby sidecap, because it did not get its way, while the parent ignores the carnage.

I am of the opinion that allowances need to be made for all members of a society, so that they can engage with each other meaningfully. This means being mindful that parenting is a full time occupation in and of itself.

However, it also means acknowledging that other people have a right to not be required to deal with your children. (So please keep the baby photos in the wallet until somebody asks about them, and please try to mitigate the carnage when it inevitabaly does happen.)

I would also ask that you be mindful of the neural patterning you have experienced, and be more critical of your emotional reactions to visual stimuli, and messages proffered by the media and politicians.

I will try to be mindful of my PTSD like behaviors that make me into an asshole.