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[nenjin]

That was in reference to McTraveller. Get out the vote, supporting candidates are about the most you can do in the macro sense. Unless you want to run for government yourself and be the change you want to see. That entails the average person completely devoting their life to politics since they lack the funds, connections, clout and experience to actually challenge incumbents.

[Enemy post]

Biden has now jumped in the race for reals.

At least The Onion will be having a good time.

[McTraveller]

That was in reference to McTraveller. Get out the vote, supporting candidates are about the most you can do in the macro sense. Unless you want to run for government yourself and be the change you want to see. That entails the average person completely devoting their life to politics since they lack the funds, connections, clout and experience to actually challenge incumbents.

I would say that organizing votes is probably the minimum thing we should be doing.  Actually holding our elected officials accountable is the next step - otherwise voting doesn't mean anything really.

What I meant by the culture thing is that most people are not even willing to vote, or if they do vote, they still "blame the system" by calling it things like "the most overbearing police state."  Yes, there are overbearing systemic issues.  Just talking about them isn't enough - talk and awareness helps, yes, but we do need to take action too.

Maybe we should run for office ourselves.  There is nothing wrong with starting locally. I mean look at New Hampshire - people did start collectively moving to that location with a common interest, sacrificing some of their own personal interests (e.g., preferred geographic location perhaps) to move to that state so they can start having a "Libertarian stronghold."

So that's the kind of action I mean - start organizing, etc. etc.  I fully understand that we can't as individuals start fixing systemic issues or prosecuting war crimes. But we can't just delegate endlessly without accountability.

Also there is this unfortunate pesky thing - that because we delegate in aggregate (adj), unless we aggregate (v) intentionally, we'll end up with the type of representative-in-name-only government we have in the USA, because the interests of the people are too diffuse compared to the concentrated efforts of special interests.

[nenjin]

Even locally you have to deal with the political machine. People in my office have run mayoral campaigns before, and were straight up told by the Democratic establishment here in town "You will never get elected. You haven't done your dues." The established political machine hates and detests absolute newcomers because they have no leverage over them, and they haven't yet compromised themselves to achieve victory. You basically have to get dirty to be electable in the eyes of the establishment so you put yourself on their level, put them at ease that you'll be just as slimey and backroom dealing as they have been, so they can rest assured the system they've steered will continue on regardless of who gets elected.

That's the reality no matter where you live. Again, if you want to devote the entirety of your life to politics, your time, your money, your morals, then maybe you stand a chance of being elected. That's not relevant to the vast majority of voter's lives. People always talk about taking tangible action but the venues where you can actually do anything are limited. Raising awareness is the most independent thing you can do right now. But it's a dicier time to stand on the corner and try and "get people woke" than ever before. You can practice Civil Disobedience but it runs the same if not greater risks.

[McTraveller]

Ok you guys are making me cynical... what do you propose then?  That people just magically start behaving nicely?

I've been trying to make suggestions, and it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 

[SalmonGod]

I wasn't saying that as an excuse for doing nothing.  I'm just saying that it should be understandable if Millennials/Gen Zs have a different attitude and a harder time regarding political action than Xers or Boomers.  They're struggling harder to survive and face greater obstacles imposed on them to discourage organizing.  Throwing longer work hours and greater risks at people and expecting the same attitude towards/rates of political action is magical thinking.

I've been trying to make suggestions, and it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 

That's not my intention, either.  I was only responding to the "kids these days" style rhetoric.  It wasn't really coming across as suggestions so much as lamentation and admonishment.

[Kagus]

it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 

Well... You could always shoot someone.

[WealthyRadish]

ASIDE:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In general there is a characteristic of this generation, especially within the USA, of trying to assign blame for the circumstances and then coerce/force others to fix it, rather than to fix problems ourselves.  Much of this is due to the massive frustration that younger demographics have at the current state of things - the frustration overshadows the "entrepreneurial spirit" that founded the country to fix problems ourselves.

Now, there is a balance, but even in issues like minimum wage or health care, the cry of this generation is "the government must fix it" rather than "we need to fix it".  It's a very subtle difference.  It even creeps in to ideas like "if only we would elect Person, they would be able to fix it" - it's putting all our hopes in one (or a few) heroes to fix things, instead of working together collectively.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That was in reference to McTraveller. Get out the vote, supporting candidates are about the most you can do in the macro sense. Unless you want to run for government yourself and be the change you want to see. That entails the average person completely devoting their life to politics since they lack the funds, connections, clout and experience to actually challenge incumbents.

I would say that organizing votes is probably the minimum thing we should be doing.  Actually holding our elected officials accountable is the next step - otherwise voting doesn't mean anything really.

What I meant by the culture thing is that most people are not even willing to vote, or if they do vote, they still "blame the system" by calling it things like "the most overbearing police state."  Yes, there are overbearing systemic issues.  Just talking about them isn't enough - talk and awareness helps, yes, but we do need to take action too.

Maybe we should run for office ourselves.  There is nothing wrong with starting locally. I mean look at New Hampshire - people did start collectively moving to that location with a common interest, sacrificing some of their own personal interests (e.g., preferred geographic location perhaps) to move to that state so they can start having a "Libertarian stronghold."

So that's the kind of action I mean - start organizing, etc. etc.  I fully understand that we can't as individuals start fixing systemic issues or prosecuting war crimes. But we can't just delegate endlessly without accountability.

Also there is this unfortunate pesky thing - that because we delegate in aggregate (adj), unless we aggregate (v) intentionally, we'll end up with the type of representative-in-name-only government we have in the USA, because the interests of the people are too diffuse compared to the concentrated efforts of special interests.

I don't want to be another mutt on this dogpile, but to be clear, you're not actually in favor of direct action outside of the political process, right? For a moment, I thought I was witnessing the birth of a neoliberal jacobin...

[Doomblade187]

Ok you guys are making me cynical... what do you propose then?  That people just magically start behaving nicely?

I've been trying to make suggestions, and it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 

Well, honestly, a good step is volunteering for candidates you like. That helps promote your favorite.

[nenjin]

Ok you guys are making me cynical... what do you propose then?  That people just magically start behaving nicely?

I've been trying to make suggestions, and it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 

We're just trying to be realwitchu. If political change was easy it would have been done by now. Drumming up true grassroots support is how you get things done, by getting regular people with regular daily life struggles to coopt your cause when they might rather sit around and do nothing but vote.

But if you want to be that guy that gathers, inspires and organizes people, you basically have to give your life to it. Do you want to turn your life over to a political cause and all that entails?

That's why the phrase "Be the change you want to see" is both motivational, and disillusioning. It's easy to tell people they should do more. Not so easy to do more yourself.

I guess my advice would be, if you want to help foment change, be rich or be completely altruistic as a starting point.

[SalmonGod]

Ok you guys are making me cynical... what do you propose then?  That people just magically start behaving nicely?

I've been trying to make suggestions, and it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 

We're just trying to be realwitchu. If political change was easy it would have been done by now. Drumming up true grassroots support is how you get things done, by getting regular people with regular daily life struggles to coopt your cause when they might rather sit around and do nothing but vote.

But if you want to be that guy that gathers, inspires and organizes people, you basically have to give your life to it. Do you want to turn your life over to a political cause and all that entails?

That's why the phrase "Be the change you want to see" is both motivational, and disillusioning. It's easy to tell people they should do more. Not so easy to do more yourself.

I guess my advice would be, if you want to help foment change, be rich or be completely altruistic as a starting point.

Here's a conundrum for you.

Who's the most likely to be future-oriented and motivated to improve society in ways that benefit more than just themselves?  People with kids.  Not saying people who don't have kids are assholes who only care about themselves.  But... I think there's some difference between caring about other people, and being in a position of absolute responsibility for the well-being of someone that you brought into existence without their permission.

Who probably has the least material resources or time to dedicate to causes?  People with kids.

Who also has the most reason to avoid seriously risky behaviors?  People with kids.  The far future doesn't matter if you lose the ability to care for your child in the immediate.  If you make that gamble, it needs to be on something with a decent likelihood of significant pay-off.  And where are chances like that to be found?

So... yeah, essentially I agree.  Rich or completely altruistic.  Or old enough to be free of obligations (but we know what that demographic is doing for us).

[nenjin]

Here's a conundrum for you.

Who's the most likely to be future-oriented and motivated to improve society in ways that benefit more than just themselves?

My first gut instinct was to respond "the young." I don't want to shit all over idealism because we wouldn't have many of the things we call progress without it. But the young are idealistic, ignorantly so, and in some ways that's a strength. Their idealism hasn't been tested by life, financial realities and social consequences. Someone is providing for their needs and their security, which allows them the freedom to pursue selfless, idealistic goals. They can more easily brush off what would threaten say a 30-year-old who has rent to pay and possibly a family to support.

But generally I'd agree that parents with children often have better reasons to pursue a career in politics and succeed at it. It gets twisted though really fast, and I've always (as someone with no kids) hated the "hold my kids up as a reason why X is right" method. You can pin almost anything on your kids, or kids in general, and it's pretty much unimpeachable in American society.

[MrRoboto75]

I wouldn't call record levels of depression and suicide very idealistic.

[sluissa]

Who also has the most reason to say "fuck everyone else, I'm making sure me and my kids are provided for"?

It swings both ways. People without kids often still want to leave something behind, even if it's not a genetic legacy, then something to be remembered by. As long as you want to be remembered for good things that help people, nothing wrong with that.

[Stench Guzman]

Federal Agents Raid Homes and Office of Corrupt Baltimore Mayor Catherine Pugh

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2019/04/25/Federal-agents-raid-home-office-of-Baltimore-Mayor-Catherine-Pugh/1641556199207/

She also wrote a children's book.  You can get a used paperback copy from Amazon for only $199!  And check out those glowing product reviews.

https://www.amazon.com/Health-Holly-Exercising-Catherine-Pugh/dp/B005RSAU3W