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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4438492 times)

LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29520 on: April 07, 2019, 07:52:01 pm »

Well, the term for the laymen here apply for a person that earn an excessive amount while selling a product or service (money lending among the services), so I guess we broaden the meaning of the word.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29521 on: April 07, 2019, 07:56:10 pm »

Who decides what the regulations are in a capitalist society? Capitalists. Food safety is red tape wasting YOUR tax dollars, lib status = owned as fuck.

Stop trying to compromise between horrible and non-horrible. Just be non-horrible god damn it.

So... communism? Hate to be cliche, but we do indeed know how that turned out.

Usually when someone yells "communism" the problem is they're conflating "any regulation at all" with "complete and total control," but in this case you're very explicitly stating all regulation is useless unless it's total.

And if capitalists always decide what regulations there are in a capitalist society, why don't they just decree there not to be regulations at all? Regulations are actually things that exist, if you've noticed.

Or they're yelling 'Communism!' because they have no desire to discuss the ideas or offer their own counterideas...

It would be infinitely funny if he fired people from his cabinet like in the old show on national tv.

You are fired!

Heh, it turns out that he doesn't like to fire people directly and either gets someone else to do it or tries to pressure them to quit. Though it sounds like this case may have been more direct because she reportedly didn't step down willingly.

Well, the term for the laymen here apply for a person that earn an excessive amount while selling a product or service (money lending among the services), so I guess we broaden the meaning of the word.

Wiki mentions that the modern english word used is usually 'loan shark'.
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29522 on: April 07, 2019, 07:59:34 pm »

Sure, but here not only applies to money lenders but for your regular business man or shop owner that likes to earn a quadrillion% profit or more.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Teneb

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29523 on: April 07, 2019, 07:59:56 pm »

Wiki mentions that the modern english word used is usually 'loan shark'.
I prefer "banker" myself.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29524 on: April 07, 2019, 08:05:18 pm »

Sure, but here not only applies to money lenders but for your regular business man or shop owner that likes to earn a quadrillion% profit or more.

That would be "scalper"

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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29525 on: April 07, 2019, 08:36:33 pm »

Isn't that a stock broker term? Well, anyway, basically the more % of earnings you have the more taxes you have to pay until a point where it starts actually eating your earnings so there's an incentive to not be an asshoke with your prices just because you can and feel like.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Culise

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29526 on: April 07, 2019, 09:12:49 pm »

Isn't that a stock broker term? Well, anyway, basically the more % of earnings you have the more taxes you have to pay until a point where it starts actually eating your earnings so there's an incentive to not be an asshoke with your prices just because you can and feel like.
As far as I know, scalper only refers to ticket resales, originally just rail, but nowadays more famously of all sorts of public entertainment venues.  At any rate, the reason I posted is because your mention of increasing tax rates eating one's earnings suddenly reminded me of Astrid Lindgren (author of Pippi Longstocking), who accidentally and rather infamously ended up with a marginal tax rate of 102% due to various interlocking tax codes.  She wrote a satire about it and set off a debate about taxation that helped bring the ruling party's government down.  Just a mildly amusing aside.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 09:16:52 pm by Culise »
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29527 on: April 07, 2019, 10:36:22 pm »

It’s one of those weird language quirks. If you’re being ripped off, you’re getting scalped. But the person doing it to you isn’t a scalper (which is a ticket resaler who buys all the tickets and sells them for ten times the price)
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29528 on: April 07, 2019, 10:47:41 pm »

The usual item is indeed tickets but it can also be other items in limited, rush commodities (like early release games, and game consoles.  See also, scalpers hiking up prices on the first run of nes classic nostalgia consoles from nintendo a few years back.)

https://www.cnet.com/news/snes-classic-ebay-scalpers-sales/

(story lamplights the nes classic scalping frenzy and compares/contrasts it with the recent snes classic scalping operation)


Given that the term also applies to such limited production run + high demand items, and not just to tickets, it is a general term that is the closest match to Baal's colloquial use of usura.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29529 on: April 07, 2019, 11:03:41 pm »

Who decides what the regulations are in a capitalist society? Capitalists. Food safety is red tape wasting YOUR tax dollars, lib status = owned as fuck.

Stop trying to compromise between horrible and non-horrible. Just be non-horrible god damn it.

So... communism? Hate to be cliche, but we do indeed know how that turned out.

Usually when someone yells "communism" the problem is they're conflating "any regulation at all" with "complete and total control," but in this case you're very explicitly stating all regulation is useless unless it's total.

And if capitalists always decide what regulations there are in a capitalist society, why don't they just decree there not to be regulations at all? Regulations are actually things that exist, if you've noticed.

Or they're yelling 'Communism!' because they have no desire to discuss the ideas or offer their own counterideas...

MSH's idea is actually communism, so saying I'm the one to originally yell "communism" is pretty dishonest here.

Communism does, in fact, exactly the opposite of what it was ostensibly is intended to do. So you have a clique of capitalists that control everything. You know what would really make that better? Taking the control away from that collection of tyrants, and give it to another collection of tyrants, except these tyrants represent the "community." That'll solve everything, sure.

The bottom line is that, in the end, someone is going to control the farms and factories and land. Some pipe dream of it being controlled by the "community" is completely misguided, as (a) completely equal community control is impractical for large projects and (b) implicit power structures will develop within supposedly "equal" groups of people. The trick is to keep the power split between many people. Make the clique compete against each other, and you empower those outside. On the other hand, coalescing literally all power into one entity is very dangerous, and ends up just like you would expect.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29530 on: April 07, 2019, 11:12:28 pm »

Who decides what the regulations are in a capitalist society? Capitalists. Food safety is red tape wasting YOUR tax dollars, lib status = owned as fuck.

Stop trying to compromise between horrible and non-horrible. Just be non-horrible god damn it.

So... communism? Hate to be cliche, but we do indeed know how that turned out.

Usually when someone yells "communism" the problem is they're conflating "any regulation at all" with "complete and total control," but in this case you're very explicitly stating all regulation is useless unless it's total.

And if capitalists always decide what regulations there are in a capitalist society, why don't they just decree there not to be regulations at all? Regulations are actually things that exist, if you've noticed.

Or they're yelling 'Communism!' because they have no desire to discuss the ideas or offer their own counterideas...

MSH's idea is actually communism, so saying I'm the one to originally yell "communism" is pretty dishonest here.

Communism does, in fact, exactly the opposite of what it was ostensibly is intended to do. So you have a clique of capitalists that control everything. You know what would really make that better? Taking the control away from that collection of tyrants, and give it to another collection of tyrants, except these tyrants represent the "community." That'll solve everything, sure.

The bottom line is that, in the end, someone is going to control the farms and factories and land. Some pipe dream of it being controlled by the "community" is completely misguided, as (a) completely equal community control is impractical for large projects and (b) implicit power structures will develop within supposedly "equal" groups of people. The trick is to keep the power split between many people. Make the clique compete against each other, and you empower those outside. On the other hand, coalescing literally all power into one entity is very dangerous, and ends up just like you would expect.

I wasn't aiming the comment at you, just the way politicians use that word and 'socialism' in general and those who use it to shut down discussion, which you weren't doing, sorry if it appeared that way. Though looking at the post, I can see how you might think that I was aiming it at you.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 11:21:18 pm by smjjames »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29531 on: April 08, 2019, 01:23:49 am »

It's a'ight, not to worry. Sorry that I misunderstood.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29532 on: April 08, 2019, 08:21:35 am »

Sure, but here not only applies to money lenders but for your regular business man or shop owner that likes to earn a quadrillion% profit or more.

That would be "scalper"
"Profiteer" is the word that came to my mind (it is very literally a person who profits, often with illegal or at least shady overtones to their means to do so). After the aforementioned cognate of "usurer", of course. Though that - as pointed out - was more financial money-for-money profiteering, rather than hypercapitalist exploitation of goods-based supply-and-demand, come what may.

Sorry, adding to the diversion. I much preferred the Space talk, but then I get less excited about money.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29533 on: April 08, 2019, 08:41:00 am »

Communism does, in fact, exactly the opposite of what it was ostensibly is intended to do. So you have a clique of capitalists that control everything. You know what would really make that better? Taking the control away from that collection of tyrants, and give it to another collection of tyrants, except these tyrants represent the "community." That'll solve everything, sure.

The bottom line is that, in the end, someone is going to control the farms and factories and land. Some pipe dream of it being controlled by the "community" is completely misguided, as (a) completely equal community control is impractical for large projects and (b) implicit power structures will develop within supposedly "equal" groups of people. The trick is to keep the power split between many people. Make the clique compete against each other, and you empower those outside. On the other hand, coalescing literally all power into one entity is very dangerous, and ends up just like you would expect.
I mostly agree with this.  So how do we stop power from coalescing into amoral hands?

Capitalism as a system encourages or even obligates people to build up and leverage power in order to acquire more power.  This is called being an "entrepreneur", an actor of the free market.  Competition is core to the system, and generally drives efficiency and competitively low prices.  Unfortunately that efficiency often comes at the expense of workers and customers, through amoral business practices.  Thankfully we have government regulation and oversight, providing disincentives for at least some of those practices.

Corporations are still profit-seeking algorithms with no built-in regard for humanity, running on humans.  But that's fine (fascinating really) as long as we force them to act morally via effective regulation.

We're not regulating them properly at this point, in America, because our Congresscritters are allowed to profit from deregulation.  They are allowed to take campaign money directly from these lobbying groups, considered "free speech", and that's just the most direct way they're compensated.  They often become well-paid lobbyists or board members after leaving office, as payment for services rendered, but the direct campaign payments are the most obvious and egregious way the system is broken.

Whether "true" communism could ever avoid turning into a plutocracy is an interesting discussion, but I'm more worried that it's happening to our capitalism.  Corporations aren't people, they're amazing genetic algorithms which optimize for whatever profit they can get away with.  They can be useful, but letting them run rampant is madness.  Letting them buy our government representatives is madness.  I'd say "bribe" except it's legal.

P.S. We can look to Europe for more effective campaign and regulation laws.  There are solutions to these problems, we just need to move in that direction.  Conservatives dismiss them as "socialism" but they're just reasonable safeguards for such powerful entities.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 08:43:45 am by Rolan7 »
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29534 on: April 08, 2019, 12:50:09 pm »

Anarchy. 

Seriously, I'm so tired of the false dichotomy telling me there's strictly two options -- capitalism or state communism.  I don't care right now to get into explaining this point further.

Because I'm even more tired of the old "we know where that path leads" lines, as if communism is something that just arose out of a vacuum one day, fucked itself, and collapsed all on its own.  The majority of the 20th century was characterized by global ideological conflict.  Going to bold and capitalize this for emphasis, because it's necessary to do so in the midst of the hysteria that any discussion of communism provokes (yet I won't be surprised if somebody still tries to accuse me of this) -- I AM NOT DEFENDING OR IN ANY WAY IN FAVOR OF SOVIET STYLE COMMUNISM

But when you're talking about the history of communism, you're being ignorant or disingenuous if you don't mention how a capitalist global superpower engaged in terrorism and de-stabilization around the world to combat the threat of a good example when you're characterizing how communism historically played out.  The way I see it, the only thing the 20th century proved in any debate between communism and capitalism is that capitalism is better at violence.  It won a violent ideological global conflict to make sure that no incarnation of communism could establish itself under peaceful or favorable terms.  Not only that, but the USA literally spent decades grinding up thousands of marginalized lives in research programs pursuing information and mind control explicitly to stop people from thinking coherently about it.  And it's proof of how effective USA's propaganda was that most now point to that period of history and hysterically proclaim "look what happens when communism!"
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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