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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4237344 times)

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24135 on: October 11, 2018, 10:58:59 pm »

It's going to vary from person to person really.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24136 on: October 11, 2018, 11:01:56 pm »

One of the other problems with native tribal names is that for a large number of tribes, their own tribal name usually equates to something like "the people", and their names for neighboring tribes (especially ones they didn't get along with) were far less flattering. And often a dominant tribe's names for people in their region is what stuck.

Example 1: The Apache. Their indigenous name for themselves is inde, "people". The word Apache is (depending on which etymology you believe), either a Zuni word for the Navajo tribe (which are a related subgroup of the Southern Athabaskan family), or a Yavapai word for "enemy".

Example 2: The Chichimeca. An indigenous group in NW Mexico, the word chichimeca comes from Nahuatl and meant "dog people", with similar connotations as the word barbaros carried in Classical Greece.

Example 3: The Zhuang. The largest of China's 55 recognized ethnic minorities (a whopping 1.2% of the population), the character originally used to write their name meant "a type of wild dog". This bit is hard to explain, but the left-hand portion of the character (which often gives you a sense of a 'category'), was the radical used for animals rather than people. In 1949, this was recognized as pejorative and replaced the animal radical with a human radical, but still kind of translated as "human+child servant". Better, but still patronizing as fuck. Finally, during a round of character simplifications in the 1970s, it was changed to a new character altogether meaning "strong".

The thing is, all three of those groups (mostly) proudly call themselves by the common appellations given to them, regardless of the original pejorative meanings. Hell, even "Yankee" was originally a pejorative used by the British against the colonials, then adopted by the colonials, then used by Southern Americans to refer to Northern Americans, and finally adopted with gusto by New York's professional baseball team.

As Lord Shonus said, probably best to let people decide what they want to be called, whether that's ethnic, political, gender orientation/identity, etc.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 11:03:58 pm by RedKing »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24137 on: October 11, 2018, 11:11:35 pm »

That Apache example is amazingly close to the root of the latin word indingena. Anyways, point taken.
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Teneb

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24138 on: October 11, 2018, 11:31:41 pm »

The problem comes from the fact that there is a country called India and it got applied because Columbus thought he was in the indies. It also has a bit of a negative connotation when talking about Native Americans, but even that varies from person to person.
Oh no, it's way more fun than that. See, Columbus insisted against every single european scholar around before he began his trip that the planet was of a certain size, a size much smaller than the real one (which the age-of-sail-era scholars were actually pretty close in their estimates). So when he got financed by the Castillian crown, he made a contract that stated that he would find a new route to the East Indies, and in return be named the region's Viceroy. When he arrived in the Caribbean he realised his horrible mistake, and knew that he'd be paid nothing because he'd not completed his contract. So he lied.

It ended with him in jail, so you can imagine how well that flew.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24139 on: October 12, 2018, 01:39:19 am »

I say I am "from here" and point towards the ground around me, I've got Apache, Comanche, and Cherokee ancestors that I know of. Some of me is "from there" and I point towards Europe (which is below the horizon to the east) but I'm not a big fan of those people outside of the Scottish because they're a great source of hilarious self-deprecating jokes, and fook the aynglish!
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24140 on: October 12, 2018, 02:45:03 am »

Whether it was specific to Romans and Celts isn't really the issue, it was a Germanic word for "not-us".
While "German" as a modern identifier (from Latin/Greek descriptor of non-Gallic tribes to the west of the Rhine) is at odds with the word and variations used by the French and others (the "All Men" confederation of tribes, it is said), the Slovak-rooted choice (the "Nemetes" tribe and/or a term for a foreigner), the Baltic one (an ancient battle-cry/the Vagoth tribe?) and then there's those countries who know the lands after the "Seax" knife, even though it most famously survives in the various Celtic words for the Angle/Jute/Saxon descendants.

It seems pretty much that these (and others) described the Germans of old by which of the diverse (and sub-Germanic, geographically) tribes their ancestry (or the ancestry of those that influenced them in this matter) were most in contact with. It being a rather busy and diverse bit of land that far back in history.

The Deutsche themselves take from a Frankish* word for "the people" (but then "us" and the like is a very common autonym**).

All of which I find interesting, even if you don't.


* - Those same Franks who give their name fairly consistently to France (though the Maori call them Wiwi - from their saying "Yes yes" a lot?), despite the quite famous presences of the Galls, Brittonic celts, that pesky incursion of viking-originating Nor(th)mans, etc.

** - especially those damnyankees, who may call themselves "The US!", multiplying their self-centredness by a determiner, capitalisation and (at least one) exclamation mark.... And, possibly influenced by their Canadian neighbours, sometimes they have an "Eh?!"at the end as they spell it out. 8)
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24141 on: October 12, 2018, 02:53:57 am »

So our choice is between native (aka indigenous) american and american indigenous and we're trying to figure out which is less offensive. Brilliant.
There's always "aboriginals". (Latin: original inhabitants)  'Cos that doesn't have adverse connotations amongst abos, right cobber?
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24142 on: October 12, 2018, 02:56:29 am »

What exactly was wrong with Redskins?
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24143 on: October 12, 2018, 03:02:23 am »

Not enough SPF in their slap-on?
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Akura

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24144 on: October 12, 2018, 04:54:17 am »

What exactly was wrong with Redskins?

They had a pretty mediocre 7-9 season last year.
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Mech#4

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24145 on: October 12, 2018, 06:02:33 am »

What exactly was wrong with Redskins?

Not everyone likes cherry flavour?
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24146 on: October 12, 2018, 07:40:22 am »

This is the exact sort of academically ok, but still really annoying sort of discussion that makes people hate political correctness.
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Rowanas

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24147 on: October 12, 2018, 07:46:39 am »

One of my favourite insults is to call someone "a savage aborigine".  As long as they were born in Britain, it's totally correct, rarely used, and sounds more offensive than it actually is on examination.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24148 on: October 12, 2018, 08:09:33 am »

Sir, you are an amiable mountebank!
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24149 on: October 12, 2018, 08:23:46 am »

This is the exact sort of academically ok, but still really annoying sort of discussion that makes people hate political correctness.

This. I'm a white guy that says stuff like, "The tall black dude over there."

...Cuz he's black. Let's not get weird about it. I'm white. I don't say Caucasian American of Germanic descent.
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