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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4235741 times)

birdy51

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22410 on: August 10, 2018, 04:26:04 am »

To be fair, I like the idea. There is no way in the holy hells that we can afford it right now though; especially since we can't tax rich people apparently.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22411 on: August 10, 2018, 05:11:52 am »

To be fair, I like the idea.

Why...?

It's clumsily bureaucratizing the militarization of space.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22412 on: August 10, 2018, 05:20:47 am »

To be fair, I like the idea.

Why...?

It's clumsily bureaucratizing the militarization of space.
It's still space. It's nice for the gov. to actually show some interest.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22413 on: August 10, 2018, 05:39:33 am »

To be fair, I like the idea.

Why...?

It's clumsily bureaucratizing the militarization of space.
It's still space. It's nice for the gov. to actually show some interest.

About 4.9% of all matter is ordinary matter that we understand; about 26.8% is dark matter that we have only the faintest clue what it is, but it contributes the rest of the gravity in the universe; the rest of the energy in the universe is locked up in mysterious Dark Energy that we have no clue what it is. In order for Trump to fulfill his heart's truest desire and become the real center of the Universe, he has to go into outerspace himself and claim all that mysterious shit out there in the name of Trump Enterprises.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22414 on: August 10, 2018, 06:27:15 am »

Only $8bn? That seems like a rather small number for big space stuff, and an awfully small number for anything military-related. Are you sure that's not just the cost of pushing the paperwork through?

But yeah, while it's technically a nice thing that the gov't is caring about space, I feel like this might be an example of "right thing for wrong reasons" if they're planning on hurling some spice meringues into orbital patrol. I don't exactly see what that would accomplish aside from making other countries try and follow suit, leading to space getting partitioned and turning into a zero-gravity pissing match instead of the semi-neutral territory where we could almost agree to cooperate internationally.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22415 on: August 10, 2018, 07:35:56 am »

Lets give those resources to NASA instead. We want PEACEFUL exploration of space. Militarization has so many problems associated with it... including being outright illegal under international law
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22416 on: August 10, 2018, 07:53:33 am »

You know , the space program was never all that peaceful to begin with... even if you leave the crazy plans like nuking the moon or packing AA cannons in space shuttles aside, to me it seemed kind of obvious that Russian and American interest in space was driven in no small measure because if you can make rockets drop robots and/or people in, say the moon, you probably can use that experience to make rockets drop more explody things on people you don't like.

That and, well, the fact that they were relying on the expertise of a nazi weapon designer
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Telgin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22417 on: August 10, 2018, 08:15:38 am »

What is the new space force supposed to even do?  For that price tag it sounds like it would just be more surveillance and similar tasks that we already do.  There's no way that would put soldiers or any substantial weapons in space on a semi-permanent basis.

Actually, am I completely imagining that there are international treaties against putting weapons in space?  I could have sworn such a thing existed, but then maybe nobody who signed those treaties would care anyway.  I'm certain Trump wouldn't.
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22418 on: August 10, 2018, 08:17:20 am »

I saw a documentary many years back that basically convinced me that the space peace (speace) agreement was only being followed in name only by either of the bigguns, and that space was ready to be militarised in no time if it would come to that.

I don't know how biased or sendationalised it was, of course, but still.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22419 on: August 10, 2018, 08:26:09 am »

You know , the space program was never all that peaceful to begin with... even if you leave the crazy plans like nuking the moon or packing AA cannons in space shuttles aside, to me it seemed kind of obvious that Russian and American interest in space was driven in no small measure because if you can make rockets drop robots and/or people in, say the moon, you probably can use that experience to make rockets drop more explody things on people you don't like.

That and, well, the fact that they were relying on the expertise of a nazi weapon designer

Flip that around. Rockets dropped explodey things first, then we realized we could use them for non-explodey things. Yes, the militaries of the world are already in space, and a lot of funding and resources for civilian stuff comes from military purposes. But so far those military purposes have been largely non-aggressive. And where they get most aggressive they stay covert about it which limits their effect. Recon, communications, navigation, that's all they really manage overtly. Stuff that we can all benefit from in some manner. Hell, the Hubble Space Telescope is a re purposed spy satellite. The space shuttle would have looked very different if the air force didn't have specific missions it wanted it to do in order to get their half of the funding in on it. So yes, civilian space benefits from the military.

But we also have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

It's an old treaty, but it's still in effect. It doesn't necessarly ban the stationing of military units in space (except for WMDs). But it does ban stationing them on other planets and moons. Which means Trump's "Mars Awaits" patch could be indicative of ideas that would break that treaty.

Yes, the military has its influence in space. You can see it almost everywhere. But there's a line to be crossed from using space passively to assist earth based forces and putting forces into space ready to fight there. Fighting there is just not worth it. Nuclear weapons detonated in the upper atmosphere would ruin electronics, satellite AND ground based for 100s+ of miles. Conventional fighting which left debris would clog orbits and potentially set off Kessler syndrome to ruin low earth orbit for EVERYONE for decades. And let's not even get started on the economic problems with an arms race if other countries decided they needed to stake their claim.

It's not worth it. It's dangerous. There's nothing to gain from it that we don't already have. And in my personal opinion, it's a pure ego boost move for Trump with little thinking actually involved.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22420 on: August 10, 2018, 09:14:18 am »

We've known that the military is directly tied with the space program for years. I mean, in the original Sims game, the end-tier job in the military career path was Astronaut.

Can't get much clearer proof than that.

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22421 on: August 10, 2018, 09:49:32 am »

We've known that the military is directly tied with the space program for years. I mean, in the original Sims game, the end-tier job in the military career path was Astronaut.

Can't get much clearer proof than that.

NASA drew from the military (test pilots mainly) during it's early years and during the Apollo program, that's true.

You know , the space program was never all that peaceful to begin with... even if you leave the crazy plans like nuking the moon or packing AA cannons in space shuttles aside, to me it seemed kind of obvious that Russian and American interest in space was driven in no small measure because if you can make rockets drop robots and/or people in, say the moon, you probably can use that experience to make rockets drop more explody things on people you don't like.

That and, well, the fact that they were relying on the expertise of a nazi weapon designer

Flip that around. Rockets dropped explodey things first, then we realized we could use them for non-explodey things. Yes, the militaries of the world are already in space, and a lot of funding and resources for civilian stuff comes from military purposes. But so far those military purposes have been largely non-aggressive. And where they get most aggressive they stay covert about it which limits their effect. Recon, communications, navigation, that's all they really manage overtly. Stuff that we can all benefit from in some manner. Hell, the Hubble Space Telescope is a re purposed spy satellite. The space shuttle would have looked very different if the air force didn't have specific missions it wanted it to do in order to get their half of the funding in on it. So yes, civilian space benefits from the military.

But we also have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

It's an old treaty, but it's still in effect. It doesn't necessarly ban the stationing of military units in space (except for WMDs). But it does ban stationing them on other planets and moons. Which means Trump's "Mars Awaits" patch could be indicative of ideas that would break that treaty.

Yes, the military has its influence in space. You can see it almost everywhere. But there's a line to be crossed from using space passively to assist earth based forces and putting forces into space ready to fight there. Fighting there is just not worth it. Nuclear weapons detonated in the upper atmosphere would ruin electronics, satellite AND ground based for 100s+ of miles. Conventional fighting which left debris would clog orbits and potentially set off Kessler syndrome to ruin low earth orbit for EVERYONE for decades. And let's not even get started on the economic problems with an arms race if other countries decided they needed to stake their claim.

It's not worth it. It's dangerous. There's nothing to gain from it that we don't already have. And in my personal opinion, it's a pure ego boost move for Trump with little thinking actually involved.

I honestly don't know what Trump imagines when he says Space Force, space troopers romping around in space (insofar as you can 'romp around' in space)? However, right now, any 'space war' would involve sattelite on sattelite action and probably blowing up sattelites.

Yeah, the risks of Kessler Syndrome would be too great to wage war in space, but angry politicians don't tend to think that far ahead.

As for the 'mars awaits' patch, does anybody seriously think any of those would end up as a military patch? I doubt Trumps marketing will have the final word on what the patch looks like since it's just that, marketing.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22422 on: August 10, 2018, 10:03:16 am »

Only $8bn? That seems like a rather small number for big space stuff, and an awfully small number for anything military-related. Are you sure that's not just the cost of pushing the paperwork through?

But yeah, while it's technically a nice thing that the gov't is caring about space, I feel like this might be an example of "right thing for wrong reasons" if they're planning on hurling some spice meringues into orbital patrol. I don't exactly see what that would accomplish aside from making other countries try and follow suit, leading to space getting partitioned and turning into a zero-gravity pissing match instead of the semi-neutral territory where we could almost agree to cooperate internationally.

The $8 billion is just the cost to set up the bureaucracy required to run a full-fledged service branch. That's not any kind of equipment purchases.


I saw a fantastic tweet along the lines of "We have a President who has sex with porn stars and wants a space army, and I *still* hate him."
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #22424 on: August 10, 2018, 10:27:05 am »

...Unless they got their Assault Rifle training by playing Call of Duty
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