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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4458625 times)

scriver

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16845 on: January 31, 2018, 01:05:49 pm »

She did sex von Fersen though
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16846 on: January 31, 2018, 01:32:00 pm »

The American economy is aristocratic sure, but I wouldn't call it fuedal or fascist.  I would describe it as Social Darwinist.  I don't mean that in terms of what Darwin actually said; what Darwin said is "in nature, the fit survive to pass on their genes."  What Social Darwinists heard was "in a just society, the strong should survive and the weak should perish."

The US capitalist aristocracy absolutely worships meritocracy.  At multiple levels the US economy has been designed to automatically measure success and failure.  And they hook those measurements up to systems of reward and punishment.  The end result is that people across the US, at all levels of the economy including CEO level, work solely to manipulate a couple numeric values that represent their worth as an employee.

Example.  You're working as a courier for a service like Amazon.  Your number is how fast you do your deliveries (with maybe a couple other numbers for delivery success rate or whatever).  So inevitably you begin to try less and less to actually deliver the packages in the correct way and just go for the max number as quick as possible.  Or find some other way to game the system.  Not because you're a dick, but because its the inevitable result of Social Darwinism.  People work towards whatever their measure of "fitness" is.  Its not just low level employees, managers and executives push for short term profits and then move to another position before the consequences of their short term thinking catches up with them.  Again, because that's what the system is set up to encourage.  Managers that ignore their numbers don't get anywhere.

Anecdotally, a lot of people in the US find applying for jobs difficult.  And I think this is true, as many places in the US would rather a position be left open (or in a cycle of hiring/firing) than accept an under-qualified person or pay to train someone who isn't qualified.  To my eyes, what employers want in the US isn't competence, its a Social Darwinist measure of fitness.

Why does M. Night Shyamalan get to keep making movies even tho they all bomb?  Why do rich assholes always seem to land on their feet even if they produce an embarrassing scandal or huge money loss for their company?  It because by surviving, they showed their fitness.  They're the badass, the go-getter, who went and made things happen for themselves.  Not for their company.  To the Social Darwinist, the guy sitting around with a pile of money and a couple success stories is more fit than the guy who has neither, even if the first guy has more big failures than big successes.

To be clear here, I'm not saying meritocracy is bad, just that this particular form of it is.  In the social darwinists' brand of meritocracy you can work backwards and extrapolate merit from results.  This places value on short term success markers and competition between individuals.  To have a meritocracy success merely needs to be rewarded, it doesn't matter how success is measured or what the rewards are provided that social advancement is primarily the result of competency.  There are other ways to do it besides what we have in America.
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Baffler

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16847 on: January 31, 2018, 02:01:35 pm »

The reason for all that is more fundamental than a poisoned meritocracy. It's a natural result of a results-driven thought process with access to modern tools and techniques. If you want to optimize your business (and you do) you need to be able to distinguish not just between what works and what doesn't, but what works better and what works best. And the best way to quantify value in an enterprise whose only goal is economic gain is, obviously, economic gain. You could argue that that wasn't the case in the past, but that's, I think, only because the tools (intellectual and physical) didn't exist yet to do it to the degree it's done now.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16848 on: January 31, 2018, 02:19:32 pm »

That's not how it worked in the past tho.  US companies used to keep people on for a long time, encourage company loyalty with benefits and such, focus more on long-term gain, and it used to be much more plausible to advance from one of the "tracks" up to another.  The 3 tracks in the US economy being "entry-level", management, and executive.  Entry-level being a misnomer because US companies would prefer to hire management outside the company.  In some cases even going so far as to make fake management positions for entry level employees where they might be called upon to do the jobs of managers if none are available but they get paid mere pennies more than they were before.

That's because the old US economy was a meritocracy based on subjective measurements of competence.  Or nepotism.  The difference between that and Social Darwinism is that Social Darwinism attempts to automate the process of free market selection and actively encourage it.  Before the free market existed but there people operated within it rather than trying to "create" it.

Look at how the economy operates in the average small/medium town now compared to before.  Used to be the mom and pop shops were run by the owner who would know all their employees.  They would compete with each other for whatever their little niche is.  Nowadays its all Walmart and each individual store is given hours based on meeting sales goals.  No one came to shop at your store because it was raining?  Doesn't matter, less hours.  The fact that it was out of your control doesn't matter because your numbers aren't being controlled by a human.  They're automatic.  No one thinks about it, the punishment and reward is built into the system.  Its not about effectiveness; taking resources away from people who are failing isn't a good business practice.  What it is, is a way to preserve the image of upward movement.  Take away expenditure to match reduced income and you get that nice upward graph on your quarterly.  That means that the CEO's numbers look good and the investors will be happy.

Think about it.  What did the "economic values" dominated congress that passed No Child Left Behind (over the complaints of experts) decide to do with our education system?  They shifted it so that each individual teacher and each individual school would be automatically assessed and then if they didn't meet their goal they would face disciplinary action.  Potential firing in the case of teachers, and reduced funding in the case of schools.  That's Social Darwinism.  It has nothing to do with common sense effectiveness and everything to do with ideology.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16849 on: January 31, 2018, 03:41:06 pm »

Yeah, and the choice of metrics in the schooling thing creates artificial perverse incentives. Metrics can be useful, but only if they're thoughtfully designed to encourage sensible behavior.

In the case of No Child Left Behind, I've read that the main metric for schools was the percentage of kids at your school who get a 50% passing grade.

Think about this as a game: your goal is to maximize the number of units worth 50 points, and units can be worth 0-100. So what you do is reduce resources for units scoring above 50, and spend it on the highest units that are below 50. Additionally, if units are worth too little, e.g. 25, then you cut all funding for them, and spend it on units worth e.g. 45. Because you can push more 45-valued units over the 50 line than you can by spending resources trying to get a 25-valued unit to a higher value.

Sure, you could not do that as well, but you're in a funding competition with rival schools, so if you don't, they will. The perverse result is that this system is geared to maximize the number of people who get 50% on tests at the expense of everything else, even if it means slashing all support for the high-achievers: e.g. this "meritocracy" approach for schools leads to an anti-meritocratic school system in which a student's success or failure are penalized with lost resources, and being average is rewarded, especially if you're slightly below average.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:00:42 pm by Reelya »
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16850 on: January 31, 2018, 06:21:27 pm »

New story:

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/donald-trumps-antismoking-boss-brenda-fitzgerald-resigns-over-tobacco-stock-investments/news-story/f8f934bef9d70e85d2a02ae1dbc02eb1

Quote
THE head of the US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention resigned overnight — a day after a report revealed she had bought stock in a tobacco company soon after being nominated to the post last year by President Trump.

Dr. Brenda Fitzgerald has been with the federal health agency, which operates a number of anti-smoking programs and conducts research on the leading cause of preventable death, since July, reports the New York Post.

Shortly after taking command of the CDC, Fitzgerald bought tens of thousands of dollars in new stocks, including as much as US$15,000 (A$19,000) of Japan Tobacco, a global company that owns brands like Winston, Camel and American Spirit cigarettes, Politico reported on Tuesday.

Can you believe that?

Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16851 on: January 31, 2018, 06:26:28 pm »

New story:

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/donald-trumps-antismoking-boss-brenda-fitzgerald-resigns-over-tobacco-stock-investments/news-story/f8f934bef9d70e85d2a02ae1dbc02eb1

Quote
THE head of the US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention resigned overnight — a day after a report revealed she had bought stock in a tobacco company soon after being nominated to the post last year by President Trump.

Dr. Brenda Fitzgerald has been with the federal health agency, which operates a number of anti-smoking programs and conducts research on the leading cause of preventable death, since July, reports the New York Post.

Shortly after taking command of the CDC, Fitzgerald bought tens of thousands of dollars in new stocks, including as much as US$15,000 (A$19,000) of Japan Tobacco, a global company that owns brands like Winston, Camel and American Spirit cigarettes, Politico reported on Tuesday.

Can you believe that?
Sadly yes

Baffler

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16852 on: January 31, 2018, 06:26:33 pm »

Sad!
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
Location subject to periodic change.
Baffler likes silver, walnut trees, the color green, tanzanite, and dogs for their loyalty. When possible he prefers to consume beef, iced tea, and cornbread. He absolutely detests ticks.

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16853 on: January 31, 2018, 06:37:33 pm »

And another one bites the dust, I guess. I don't think I've seen the "hire people incompetent enough to get caught" swamp cleaning gambit before. Seems kinda' inefficient, really...
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16854 on: January 31, 2018, 06:38:23 pm »

Oh i almost missed the best bit. The Health and Human Services Secretary's spokeperson wrote:

Quote
“Dr. Fitzgerald owns certain complex financial interests that have imposed a broad recusal limiting her ability to complete all of her duties as the CDC Director,” the statement said. “Due to the nature of these financial interests, Dr. Fitzgerald could not divest from them in a definitive time period.”

Which is the most weasel-worded thing ever. So the entire health administration is covering for her here.

"Complex financial interests" ... ? She bought shares in a company named "Japan Tobacco". This is not a situation where she had some investments and there was some subsidiary she didn't know about, who made cigarettes. It's right there in the name of what she bought.

"Dr. Fitzgerald could not divest from them in a definitive time period" ... ? She bought them after getting the CDC job. And they're shares - you can buy or sell them whenever you want. What are they trying to say? That she couldn't divest herself of them until the price had gone up, because she wanted to make a profit?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 06:44:08 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16855 on: January 31, 2018, 06:57:12 pm »

And another one bites the dust, I guess. I don't think I've seen the "hire people incompetent enough to get caught" swamp cleaning gambit before. Seems kinda' inefficient, really...

I don't think there is any kind of gambit or plan here.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16856 on: January 31, 2018, 07:15:55 pm »

What an amazing example of corruption.
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16857 on: January 31, 2018, 10:19:10 pm »

Corruption, or doing what any red-blooded ‘Murcan would do given half-a-chance (and half-a-million dollars)? She’s the finest example of modern gri(f)t there ever was.

People should be taking notes, not names!
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16858 on: February 01, 2018, 02:10:17 pm »

That seems to be the MO.  Put someone in charge of the department who doesn't want it to exist AND is massively incompetent.

I swear the only reason that Tillerson is making a real effort to restrain Trump from starting a war is because his conflict of interest (wanting the sanctions on Russia to be lifted for the sake of his own company) got quashed by congress early on.

When all this is done they should find all the career civil servants that quit or were fired and offer them their jobs back.  If they even want to go back into government after this shit happened.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16859 on: February 01, 2018, 03:43:29 pm »

When all this is done they should find all the career civil servants that quit or were fired and offer them their jobs back.
Tell them to run for congress. :V
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