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[Frumple]

One of the more... infuriating, I guess? Things about that is that shit not only screws with people's lives, it also fucks a lot of our tax dollars (and/or the money the cops jack from people one way or another, which might as well be the same thing just collected by way of -- often questionably justified -- confiscation) into a hole made of civil litigation.

Makes me wonder what the numbers look like, for reparative and/or punitive civil results vs. however much money isn't being spent on training and human resource management on the cops' part. Dunno about on the net across the whole country, but I'd be real damn unsurprised if there's specific jurisdictions whose skinflint bullshit and subsequent goddamn incompetence is costing the people more than it's saving the precinct.

[Trekkin]

One of the more... infuriating, I guess? Things about that is that shit not only screws with people's lives, it also fucks a lot of our tax dollars (and/or the money the cops jack from people one way or another, which might as well be the same thing just collected by way of -- often questionably justified -- confiscation) into a hole made of civil litigation.

Makes me wonder what the numbers look like, for reparative and/or punitive civil results vs. however much money isn't being spent on training and human resource management on the cops' part. Dunno about on the net across the whole country, but I'd be real damn unsurprised if there's specific jurisdictions whose skinflint bullshit and subsequent goddamn incompetence is costing the people more than it's saving the precinct.

I wouldn't be surprised either, but part of the problem is that those two budgets aren't connected closely enough and most police departments are underfunded, in part because civil asset forfeiture is expected to fill in the gaps much like how the lottery is supposed to fund education. It doesn't work that way in practice, but local government tends to see every source of income they don't have to budget for as an infinite magical money pot.

I'm not saying it should happen, but there are rational reasons to trade training that comes out of a limited budget for litigation that doesn't.

[nenjin]

I don't think it has shit to do with training. It has everything to do with culture and the arrogance of power. His lieutenant told him not to take any shit from anyone on this, that he wanted that blood sample. I'm guessing he damn well knew the law and just decided to force the issue. (Probably because he assumed the suspect wouldn't have the werewithal to contest procedure in court and get that evidence thrown out, which is the usual reason cops don't throw their weight around with citizens, because it can jeopardize a conviction.)

I hope the nurse's lawyer has a field day with this. But chances are they'll just settle with the department admitting no fault. Because that's the way this shit always goes.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There have been plenty of stories from other people in the medical profession from this. This sort of thing is a regular occurrence. As is shooting people's pets for fun, stealing everything they've got under civil forfeiture, beating the shit out of homeless folks and dumping them in the countryside, lying to the vulnerable and mentally ill to entrap them, and conspicuously perjuring every court statement they'll ever give.

At this stage, an adult who doesn't know how the pigs operate either doesn't care to know or gets off it. For every one of these that hits the news because there happened to be video a hundred pass in silence. Anybody who continues to associate with such scum shares in their guilt. This isn't a lack of knowledge but an enforced ignorance, because a lot of people really do want cops to terrorize everyone who's not them.

[martinuzz]

Looks like deporting all cops to Mexico in exchange for getting some hardworking Mexican laborers would make the US a much better place.

[Frumple]

[snip]

That would be human resource management, yes. I.e. keeping your organization's members from doing stupid shit, one way or another. Want to say about the biggest cost there (that's not payroll/medical/etc.) often comes from firing dumbshits and having to spend the money to hire someone else.

[EnigmaticHat]

There have been plenty of stories from other people in the medical profession from this. This sort of thing is a regular occurrence. As is shooting people's pets for fun, stealing everything they've got under civil forfeiture, beating the shit out of homeless folks and dumping them in the countryside, lying to the vulnerable and mentally ill to entrap them, and conspicuously perjuring every court statement they'll ever give.

At this stage, an adult who doesn't know how the pigs operate either doesn't care to know or gets off it. For every one of these that hits the news because there happened to be video a hundred pass in silence. Anybody who continues to associate with such scum shares in their guilt. This isn't a lack of knowledge but an enforced ignorance, because a lot of people really do want cops to terrorize everyone who's not them.

Not to mention locking hands and providing a unified defense every time anyone else in the profession does something wrong.  But I'm sure its just a couple bad apples...

[nenjin]

[snip]

That would be human resource management, yes. I.e. keeping your organization's members from doing stupid shit, one way or another. Want to say about the biggest cost there (that's not payroll/medical/etc.) often comes from firing dumbshits and having to spend the money to hire someone else.

The reason I say it's "not training" is because "training" covers up the actual problem, makes it bland when it's actual quite real and problematic. "Training" implies an officer just wasn't taught well enough how not to violate people's rights, got a 20/25 on his quiz rather than the required 23/25.

Culture is something entirely different. Culture says "do the exact opposite of what you've been trained to do and I give you a pass for doing it." I suppose you can put that under the very utilitarian title of "Human Resource Management" but I prefer to call it what it is: corruption.

[Egan_BW]

Corrupted Training. It's a problem with the training not because they don't follow it, but because officers are trained to terrorize the populace.

[Loud Whispers]

One solution would be to have the police be of a culture that they are not separate from the people as a distinct warrior class unto their own; but as a member of the citizenry, whose authority derives from the citizens' trust. Looking into it further, this seems to be done by few in the US, but some are moving in that direction.

Of course this is at odds with most US police, and with US police getting bigger armour and guns, it's harder to have a hammer and not see nails everywhere

[smjjames]

It's partially the whole "They have better guns and equipment, we need better guns and equipment" cycle.

[Egan_BW]

Automatic assault hammer with a laser sight and folding stock, more like.
And the nails are all mysteriously painted black and brown.

[Trekkin]

One solution would be to have the police be of a culture that they are not separate from the people as a distinct warrior class unto their own; but as a member of the citizenry, whose authority derives from the citizens' trust. Looking into it further, this seems to be done by few in the US, but some are moving in that direction.

Of course this is at odds with most US police, and with US police getting bigger armour and guns, it's harder to have a hammer and not see nails everywhere

Oh, that would be great, but you're talking about shifting a culture that starts getting drilled into most future police officers in grade school, particularly sports. They are an elite band of brothers, their coaches tell them, because they can kick a ball really far; there's this whole sick mythology surrounding sports that tells them they're little demigods because they have varsity things, and of course the coaches are products of this culture too and want to protect their boys (from the consequences of their own actions.) That sends a message. So does our countywide broad-spectrum admiration of soldiers in terms too abstract to get across that what they do, they do in terrible and unfortunate extremis. Our heroes kill, either literally or figuratively in big arenas.

The cops who are walking around waving guns in jaywalkers' faces and beating the homeless to death are just repeating what they learned in school, what our whole culture is tacitly endorsing: that their value lies in their aggression and all good things come from wanting them really hard and letting nothing stop them in the most bloodily direct sense imaginable.

[nenjin]

It's partially the whole "They have better guns and equipment, we need better guns and equipment" cycle.

Yeah, because I see bands of criminals roaming around in APCs these days and carrying grenade launchers.

Oh wait, sorry. That was just Trump's personal fantasy.

[smjjames]

It's partially the whole "They have better guns and equipment, we need better guns and equipment" cycle.

Yeah, because I see bands of criminals roaming around in APCs these days and carrying grenade launchers.

Oh wait, sorry. That was just Trump's personal fantasy.

Well, the perceieved need for bigger, stronger, badasseder equipment.