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[Playergamer]

If antifa hadn't showed up, the neo-nazis wouldn't have "been ignored" they would have gone around beating brown people with those torches they brought. Which is what they tried to do anyway.

Er, evidence please? There's no reason to suspect that these morons were going to do anything but give a couple of shitty speeches, solve Virginia's mosquito problem once and for all, and go home talking about how they saved the master race.

Instead, 30+ people were injured, some incredibly seriously, and y'know somebody is kinda dead.

[birdy51]

All of this is honestly terrifying in it's inevitability, but I can't see this spreading far and having repercussions out of Charleston. The core of the conflict, the removal of Confederate statutes, isn't exactly a rallying cry for the rest of the nation. I think this whole particular incident will probably blow over quickly.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

If antifa hadn't showed up, the neo-nazis wouldn't have "been ignored" they would have gone around beating brown people with those torches they brought. Which is what they tried to do anyway.

Er, evidence please? There's no reason to suspect that these morons were going to do anything but give a couple of shitty speeches, solve Virginia's mosquito problem once and for all, and go home talking about how they saved the master race.

Instead, 30+ people were injured, some incredibly seriously, and y'know somebody is kinda dead.

I love how the standards of evidence asymptotically approach infinity when the subject is neo-nazis. The town is still a town, there are people who live there and are exposed to the neo-nazis when they rally. The nazis brought armor and weaponry with the only identifiable intent of using them, and while they surely expected antifa they would have settled for passerby had antifa gotten stuck in the Safe Space Bunker that day.

How much more do you need, exactly? If a person walks around pointing a knife at you while claiming to be a peaceful protestor, are you just going to take their word for it? Are we to renounce all capacity for reason on the risk of an outlier where people advocating "peaceful ethnic cleansing" are just a part of some refined intellectual assertion divorced from physical reality?

Nice reframing at the end there, but the murdered woman's blood is on the nazis' hands, not antifa for showing up.

[RedKing]

All of this is honestly terrifying in it's inevitability, but I can't see this spreading far and having repercussions out of Charleston. The core of the conflict, the removal of Confederate statutes, isn't exactly a rallying cry for the rest of the nation. I think this whole particular incident will probably blow over quickly.

Charlottesville (VA), not Charleston (SC). Also not Charlotte (NC). Although all three have had civil unrest related to racial tensions in recent years.

And I think this is way beyond Confederate statues now. Nobody's even talking about that. In part, because if someone formulates a sentence like "Well, this violence is terrible, but the real tragedy is the erasure of our Southern heritage", presumably their brain throttles their tongue and prevents them from making a complete ass of themselves.

[smjjames]

All of this is honestly terrifying in it's inevitability, but I can't see this spreading far and having repercussions out of Charleston. The core of the conflict, the removal of Confederate statutes, isn't exactly a rallying cry for the rest of the nation. I think this whole particular incident will probably blow over quickly.

All of this is honestly terrifying in it's inevitability, but I can't see this spreading far and having repercussions out of Charleston. The core of the conflict, the removal of Confederate statutes, isn't exactly a rallying cry for the rest of the nation. I think this whole particular incident will probably blow over quickly.

Charlottesville (VA), not Charleston (SC). Also not Charlotte (NC). Although all three have had civil unrest related to racial tensions in recent years.

And I think this is way beyond Confederate statues now. Nobody's even talking about that. In part, because if someone formulates a sentence like "Well, this violence is terrible, but the real tragedy is the erasure of our Southern heritage", presumably their brain throttles their tongue and prevents them from making a complete ass of themselves.

Yeah. While this specific incident will blow over as quickly as such incidents generally blow over, since the alt-right has gotten emboldened, you have to wonder what their next move will be.

It would be better if the antifa and counterprotestors countered it with peaceful protests because fighting them is just giving them what they want.

[Playergamer]

If antifa hadn't showed up, the neo-nazis wouldn't have "been ignored" they would have gone around beating brown people with those torches they brought. Which is what they tried to do anyway.

Er, evidence please? There's no reason to suspect that these morons were going to do anything but give a couple of shitty speeches, solve Virginia's mosquito problem once and for all, and go home talking about how they saved the master race.

Instead, 30+ people were injured, some incredibly seriously, and y'know somebody is kinda dead.

I love how the standards of evidence asymptotically approach infinity when the subject is neo-nazis. The town is still a town, there are people who live there and are exposed to the neo-nazis when they rally. The nazis brought armor and weaponry with the only identifiable intent of using them, and while they surely expected antifa they would have settled for passerby had antifa gotten stuck in the Safe Space Bunker that day.

How much more do you need, exactly? If a person walks around pointing a knife at you while claiming to be a peaceful protestor, are you just going to take their word for it? Are we to renounce all capacity for reason on the risk of an outlier where people advocating "peaceful ethnic cleansing" are just a part of some refined intellectual assertion divorced from physical reality?

Nice reframing at the end there, but the murdered woman's blood is on the nazis' hands, not antifa for showing up.

Nobody would've died if there hadn't been an antifa march hours after the rally was over. Nobody would've died if the police had done their job and cleared out /all/ unlawful assemblies, not just the racist ones. Nobody would've died if the cops had put up a couple of roadblocks. Nobody would've died if the cops had done there job and separated the two sides, instead of pushing them together to cause a violent brawl.

As for your claim about evidence, that's fucking ridiculous. I live in the East Bay, and I'm used to people being physically assaulted for being right of Marx, including myself. The fact is that the decision to bring weapons and armor was perfectly valid, because the state police chose to create a series of running street battles for no discernable reason. There's no evidence whatsoever that these people would've attacked bystanders except "muh nazhees".

[smjjames]

If antifa hadn't showed up, the neo-nazis wouldn't have "been ignored" they would have gone around beating brown people with those torches they brought. Which is what they tried to do anyway.

Er, evidence please? There's no reason to suspect that these morons were going to do anything but give a couple of shitty speeches, solve Virginia's mosquito problem once and for all, and go home talking about how they saved the master race.

Instead, 30+ people were injured, some incredibly seriously, and y'know somebody is kinda dead.

I love how the standards of evidence asymptotically approach infinity when the subject is neo-nazis. The town is still a town, there are people who live there and are exposed to the neo-nazis when they rally. The nazis brought armor and weaponry with the only identifiable intent of using them, and while they surely expected antifa they would have settled for passerby had antifa gotten stuck in the Safe Space Bunker that day.

How much more do you need, exactly? If a person walks around pointing a knife at you while claiming to be a peaceful protestor, are you just going to take their word for it? Are we to renounce all capacity for reason on the risk of an outlier where people advocating "peaceful ethnic cleansing" are just a part of some refined intellectual assertion divorced from physical reality?

Nice reframing at the end there, but the murdered woman's blood is on the nazis' hands, not antifa for showing up.

Nobody would've died if there hadn't been an antifa march hours after the rally was over. Nobody would've died if the police had done their job and cleared out /all/ unlawful assemblies, not just the racist ones. Nobody would've died if the cops had put up a couple of roadblocks. Nobody would've died if the cops had done there job and separated the two sides, instead of pushing them together to cause a violent brawl.

Let me add one more: Nobody would have died if nobody protested in the first place. See where your logic is going?

[Not good with names]

You see, we have to protect the rights of white supremists speech by taking away the rights of people that oppose them.  We have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because obviously the movement has always been peaceful until provoked.

[Playergamer]

You see, we have to protect the rights of white supremists speech by taking away the rights of people that oppose them.  We have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because obviously the movement has always been peaceful until provoked.

Strawman. How is it "taking away their rights" to keep the two groups separate? How is it "taking away their rights" to disperse their public marches in the middle of a state of emergency declared by the governor?

If antifa hadn't showed up, the neo-nazis wouldn't have "been ignored" they would have gone around beating brown people with those torches they brought. Which is what they tried to do anyway.

Er, evidence please? There's no reason to suspect that these morons were going to do anything but give a couple of shitty speeches, solve Virginia's mosquito problem once and for all, and go home talking about how they saved the master race.

Instead, 30+ people were injured, some incredibly seriously, and y'know somebody is kinda dead.

I love how the standards of evidence asymptotically approach infinity when the subject is neo-nazis. The town is still a town, there are people who live there and are exposed to the neo-nazis when they rally. The nazis brought armor and weaponry with the only identifiable intent of using them, and while they surely expected antifa they would have settled for passerby had antifa gotten stuck in the Safe Space Bunker that day.

How much more do you need, exactly? If a person walks around pointing a knife at you while claiming to be a peaceful protestor, are you just going to take their word for it? Are we to renounce all capacity for reason on the risk of an outlier where people advocating "peaceful ethnic cleansing" are just a part of some refined intellectual assertion divorced from physical reality?

Nice reframing at the end there, but the murdered woman's blood is on the nazis' hands, not antifa for showing up.

Nobody would've died if there hadn't been an antifa march hours after the rally was over. Nobody would've died if the police had done their job and cleared out /all/ unlawful assemblies, not just the racist ones. Nobody would've died if the cops had put up a couple of roadblocks. Nobody would've died if the cops had done there job and separated the two sides, instead of pushing them together to cause a violent brawl.

Let me add one more: Nobody would have died if nobody protested in the first place. See where your logic is going?

No, I don't. My complaints above are actions the police should've taken to maintain peace and order. Yours is telling the protesters not to protest.

[EnigmaticHat]

Remember all the antifa marching against Mitt Romney?  No?  That's because in the absence of fascists, antifa wouldn't be doing anything.  They only popped up because the president had the likes of Steve Banon in his inner circle and a glowing recommendation from the KKK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Racist_Action

Generally considered the predecessor to Antifa and Antifa follows a lot of the same tactics and methods.

This is one of those situation where I might agree with their message, but I don't agree with their methods at all.

That article doesn't make your point.  They explicitly exist because of fascist groups like the neonazis, one of the quotes in the article is "everywhere they go we go".  They do seem like a precursor to antifa but their politics aren't exactly the same.  Recruited from "skinheads and the punk subculture", described as "anarchists" where as antifa are republicans in the old meaning of that word.

I would agree that precursor movement is pretty accurate and that yes, this is finally a genuine instance of violent leftists from the modern US.  And I would be in opposition to their methods.  However the methods described in detail here, do not resemble antifa's methods.  The SPLC describes them as beating and kicking bloody any neo-nazi who went to the wrong punk club.  Their 15 minutes of national level news fame was in 2012, running into a restaurant hosting a white nationalist meetup and beating everyone bloody with clubs.  Yeah, its awful and they should stop.  But like, that doesn't resemble any other US leftist group I know of antifa included and I have a hard time believing that represents some kind of larger rot in the left.  More to the point, the factual distortions from Fox and the NRA, weren't targeted against these guys anyway, so my point still stands.

[RedKing]

The fact is that the decision to bring weapons and armor was perfectly valid

There's no evidence whatsoever that these people would've attacked bystanders

Then why bring weapons?
Armor, sure, okay, whatever. If you want to look a Teutonic Knight LARP brigade, knock yourselves out. But why weapons, if you're not planning to fight?


I'm sorry, but your argument is full of shit. It's not as if this was a purely local group and Antifa escalated things by trucking in people who weren't otherwise involved. This was a mass influx of Nazis and Nazi-wannabes from all over the country, for the purpose of rubbing their hairy Aryan asses in the face of the people of Charlottesville. In the face of that, a counter-response is both warranted and justified.

Don't start no shit, wont be no shit.

[Arx]

Let me add one more: Nobody would have died if nobody protested in the first place. See where your logic is going?

I believe his point is that protesting and deaths need not be mutually inclusive. Of course no one would die if there were no protest, but the fact that people did die when there were protests is not an inherent quality of protesting.

[Folly]

Loathe as I am to defend Trump, I cannot agree with the criticism he is receiving for failing to name specific groups and disavow them. It's not the President's responsibility to decide which ideological groups are good or bad. Trump denounced the violent actions, and that was an entirely sufficient response to this situation.
Also, he responded within hours of the violence ramping up, and was harshly criticized for not saying anything sooner. That is just utterly ridiculous. People are just grasping at any little thing they can think of to hate Trump at this point. The man is on the brink of instigating a nuclear war, he should have some leeway when it comes to responding to other issues right now.

[Playergamer]

The fact is that the decision to bring weapons and armor was perfectly valid

There's no evidence whatsoever that these people would've attacked bystanders

Then why bring weapons?
Armor, sure, okay, whatever. If you want to look a Teutonic Knight LARP brigade, knock yourselves out. But why weapons, if you're not planning to fight?


I'm sorry, but your argument is full of shit. It's not as if this was a purely local group and Antifa escalated things by trucking in people who weren't otherwise involved. This was a mass influx of Nazis and Nazi-wannabes from all over the country, for the purpose of rubbing their hairy Aryan asses in the face of the people of Charlottesville. In the face of that, a counter-response is both warranted and justified.

Don't start no shit, wont be no shit.

Because they knew antifa would be there, and there'd probably be a fight. They doesn't mean they were going to go around lynching bystanders.

This seems really simple to understand, guys.

[RedKing]

Loathe as I am to defend Trump, I cannot agree with the criticism he is receiving for failing to name specific groups and disavow them. It's not the President's responsibility to decide which ideological groups are good or bad. Trump denounced the violent actions, and that was an entirely sufficient response to this situation.
Also, he responded within hours of the violence ramping up, and was harshly criticized for not saying anything sooner. That is just utterly ridiculous. People are just grasping at any little thing they can think of to hate Trump at this point. The man is on the brink of instigating a nuclear war, he should have some leeway when it comes to responding to other issues right now.

"It's not my place to decide whether ISIS or the democratically-elected government if Iraq is good or bad. Both have their flaws, and there is hatred and violence from many, many sides here."

See how ridiculous that sounds?

EDIT:
@Playergamer: And so Antifa is bad for rising to the bait and arming themselves, but the Nazis are totes legit for arming themselves, because Antifa will be there. Yeah, still full of shit.