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[Draignean]

Ah, to see the death of spiciest spice girl. I imagine every late show host will have a day of mourning for the loss of their most tormented sleeping bag.

However, kudos to Spicer for having a spine. The fact that he was capable of disagreeing with something Trump said or did gives me a measure of respect for him.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It looks like Dippin Dots is the ice cream of the future after all.

[RedKing]

Now for Spicer to publish a tell-all account of shenanigans. Such an account would be, dare I say it.....spicy?

[EnigmaticHat]

In addition to the "find me dirt on Mueller and/or his team", NYT and WaPo (and now a host of other media orgs) are reporting that the Trump legal team has been exploring the constitutional and legal limits of the President's ability to pardon.

Such as:
--Can the President pardon his staff?
--Can the President pardon family members?
--Can the President pardon HIMSELF?

Now, the Trump apologia handwave is that all of this is just a mental exercise, a contingency to be prepared for any possibility. But....you don't start digging into that unless you think you *might* need it. And you don't think you might need it unless you dun goofed. Bigly.

I honestly can't imagine what the popular and Congressional reactions would be if Trump Jr. and/or Kushner was found guilty of collusion with a foreign power, and then got pardoned by Trump.

I absolutely can imagine the reaction if Trump himself was convicted of whatever and pardoned himself. It's called "armed mobs marching on DC, encountering other armed loyalist mobs".

As far as I know, the answer to all of those questions is a flat "yes."  With the exception that the only charge that ever seems to stick to presidents is impeachment, and you can't pardon your own impeachment.

Honestly, if Trump were to pardon for example Trump Jr., he would lose some of his diehards but not that many.  Maybe a 2% drop in approval.  There's no one really left besides the diehards at this point.  People are denying that Trump Jr. ever met with a Russian lawyer, which is pretty impressive considering Trump Jr. himself admitted to it.

[Frumple]

You'd be wrong, heh. Presidential pardons are specifically limited to federal crimes (and just about everyone under potential fire for stuff related to that dirt is very much in the cross hairs of a lot more than federal level crimes), and an attempt at self-pardon has both never happened and is pretty sketchy from a legal perspective.

There's also some pretty substantial issues to being pardoned that makes it kinda' chancy, honestly. It's generally considered an admission of guilt, ehehe.

[Neonivek]

I am sure if Trump pardoned Trump Jr. He would talk about how it was all a Liberal plot and all he was doing was stopping them from getting their way.

[EnigmaticHat]

You'd be wrong, heh. Presidential pardons are specifically limited to federal crimes (and just about everyone under potential fire for stuff related to that dirt is very much in the cross hairs of a lot more than federal level crimes), and an attempt at self-pardon has both never happened and is pretty sketchy from a legal perspective.

There's also some pretty substantial issues to being pardoned that makes it kinda' chancy, honestly. It's generally considered an admission of guilt, ehehe.

...but the only alternative to a federal crime is a state crime?  Nixon and Bill Clinton were both pardoned, just not by themselves.

Edit: As for the president pardoning himself its considered a legal grey area.  The constitution's wording doesn't forbid it, so it would almost 100% go to the supreme court.

[Frumple]

Yeah, it would, but the SCOTUS -- while not explicitly stating it -- have been pretty clear on related subjects that they would not be terribly amused to the POTUS attempting to pardon themselves, particularly from criminal convictions.

And yeah, the alternative to a federal crime is a state crime. So far as I'm aware NY at the absolute least has a nice slate of financial laws trump and co haven't seen jail time over largely just because no one cared enough to see them hit with it. It's been pretty consistent speculation that whatever else mueller might turn up, now that the investigation is doing stuff like looking into business connections there's going to be a whole mess of that sort of shit start tumbling out. Basically, there's no guarantee a presidential pardon would be keeping anyone from ending up in front of a judge.

Though clinton pardoned or not, the bit that explicitly reached SCOTUS was settled on before anything else. Only reason it didn't go further is because of that, heh. It's very much true the constitution doesn't explicitly forbid it, but that's basically the whole and entire legal defense for it and there's a good chunk of other stuff in rather pointed disagreement.

E: Or to put it another way, from what I've seen so far it looks a lot like the legal area it's in is a lot less grey than some folks like to present it as, for whatever reason (*coughviewscough*). It is, but by and large it only is because no one's actually been stupid enough to play legal chicken with the SCOTUS on the subject, yet.

E2: Though, at the end of the day, what makes it personally seem hilariously unlikely that the judiciary would go along with a self-pardon is that it would effectively be ceding any and all judicial oversight of the POTUS, and to a large degree by extension the executive branch as a whole.

Like, to say they would is effectively trying to say they would willingly take a gigantic dump not just on the separation of powers, but explicitly on their own ability to influence the other branches of government, utterly undermining a sizable chunk of both their authority and mandate. Is there any level it actually makes sense they would do that if there's absolutely any room to avoid it, which there very much is?

[RedKing]

no one's actually been stupid enough to play legal chicken with the SCOTUS on the subject, yet.

Wherever he is, Donald Trump just stood up and told everyone in attendance, "Hold my beer."

EDIT: And for me, the more dstressing statistic out of that PPP poll is this one:

-Even if there was an investigation, and it found that the Trump campaign did collude with Russia to aid his campaign, 77% of his supporters think he should still stay in office to just 16% who believe he should resign

DOUBLE-EDIT: And this one.

Trump's right about one thing though- he could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue and not lose most of his support. 45% say they would still approve of him even if he shot someone to 29% who say they would disapprove, and 26% who aren't sure one way or the other.

Hence my comment about "armed loyalist mobs" if there was any attempt to remove Trump from office, even by legal means. We're talking about people who no longer give a flying fuck about the rule of law.

[EnigmaticHat]

I don't know if there's even a response to that besides a frowning emote. 

[RedKing]

I have to think that last question is more of a signalling thing, like being deliberately Deplorable to indicate their support. Like, "Hell yeah, cause he'd probably be capping some big ol fat libruhl, or maybe Killary herself! That shock you, snowflake? You gonna print that in your fake poll there?"

See, I have to think that, because the alternative is that about a quarter of the voting electorate needs to be removed from the gene pool. Quickly.

[Egan_BW]

I don't honestly think that genetics has much to do with how much a person respects the rule of law. Chaotic Evil is not a gene. Therefore, I'd say that those people should be removed from the meme pool.

[MrRoboto75]

I don't honestly think that genetics has much to do with how much a person respects the rule of law. Chaotic Evil is not a gene. Therefore, I'd say that those people should be removed from the meme pool.

Memes are the DNA of the soul, though.

[Rolan7]

(I am 5 pages behind, and I insist on catching up with what every person says)

Unleash a thousand Hamilton memes. The Senate healthcare bill is dead, as is any talk of a straight ACA repeal.

Trump threw a short temper tantrum of a presser afterwards, and is moving on to other things. Like failing to renegotiate NAFTA, botching an attempted reversal of Roe V. Wade, or possibly building a one-mile stretch of chicken wire fence on the Rio Grande, slapping a gold Trump sign on it, and declaring Mission Accomplished.

In hindsight, I'm beginning to think Trump is a good thing for America, because he's going to be the death of the Republican Party.

I still disagree- no, actively resent the idea that an intentionally shitty president will help us, the USA.

I don't even agree that this debacle will hurt the Republican Party, an establishment I (mostly) disagree with.  They only need the barest excuse to distance themselves from Trump - and they have a million.  Even in real life, they resisted him from the start, and only "let" him win when their chosen candidates lost.  They didn't do this on purpose, and as a result, they can avoid all culpability.

And because people largely think in terms of the President, that means they can dodge everything they did as Congress this session.  Anything they push through- Trump!  Anything they fail to push through- Trump!

Why did you destroy our health care??  Trump!  AS HE PROMISED
(Oh, that issue is over?  Let us hope so.)

[misko27]

Sean Spicer is dead, long live Sean Milder.