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[Reelya]

If you find yourself using debating tactics that are included on lists of logical fallacies then it should be a warning sign that lines have been crossed. This goes for everyone however. Major culprits tend to be "shifting goalposts" (a variant of which is the "no true scotsman" argument) and "strawman" arguments, but they often don't stick out as a much as Godwins.

[EnigmaticHat]

Since Comey is done for we might as well discuss him.

I do think he intentionally sabotaged Clinton but I don't think it was out of any friendship for Trump.  My read is that Comey was motivated by a mix of genuinely trying to do his job and trying to be Hoover and amass personal power.  For the Russian ties investigation he was stalling, waiting for one of two things.  Either he gets enough overwhelming evidence to absolutely destroy Trump, or he doesn't and he lets the whole thing rot.  In the latter case he either quietly gives Trump the false impression that he dropped the investigation out of support, or if something semi-damning turned up then he lets it slip to a Trump staffer what he knows as a kind of implied blackmail.  He was never so corrupt that he wasn't doing his job, and I don't think he was a Trump supporter on any level.  He was in it to keep his job first and foremost.  That's why he used his position to tamper with the election and why he was so wishy-washy about investigating Trump.  Maybe he thought he could pull the strings on the Republicans, use his support of them in the Clinton witchhunt to milk out some more years as director.  Serves him right that it didn't work.  Anyway, that's just my speculation as to his motivations.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yeah I have no real education in debate but I know logical fallacies from other peoples bullshit arguments and being called out on trying to use them myself.

Anyways I got in trouble for taking up extremely unpopular opinions and bitterly defending them. A technique I used to use tk get into fistfights at bars with dipshitty type people. Years ago. Ancient history. Politically I am actually moderate/centrist. Which probably brings me further right than folks here steer.

[misko27]

For what it's worth, my theory is he tried to look above-it-all and satisfy everyone. So he decided against charges, but complained about Clinton, hoping he'd attract the support of people who thought she was suspicious but not criminal. But of course, since no one was voting for him, only for one of the two, not picking a side directly cost him.

Meanwhile, it looks like news agencies are sizing up the font they are using to report on his firing, so they think this is big news.

[smjjames]

His conduct with the whole clinton investigation and seeming to stall with answering Congress (even behind closed doors) is certainly questionable and the thing with overblowing the emails that got leaked to Anthony Wiener (by accident apparently, via an auto forwarding thing) and seeming to lie to congress is certainly a no no.

Still, Comey's conduct aside, we still have to consider the fact that there is an investigation going on and it's unknown whether he was fired because of that or what. Obviously, firing him won't stop the investigation neccesarily.

For what it's worth, my theory is he tried to look above-it-all and satisfy everyone. So he decided against charges, but complained about Clinton, hoping he'd attract the support of people who thought she was suspicious but not criminal. But of course, since no one was voting for him, only for one of the two, not picking a side directly cost him.

Meanwhile, it looks like news agencies are sizing up the font they are using to report on his firing, so they think this is big news.

In context, it IS big news, because the President firing the FBI director is normally a thing that does not happen. If the FBI wasn't doing an investigation on Trump stuff, it'd be somewhat less of a big deal, but they are doing an investigation.

What the WH does NEXT however, is going to be closely watched.

Also, apparently Congress had virtually no notice at all that it was going to happen, the leaders may have gotten a bit, but it surprised everybody.

[EnigmaticHat]

Someone on Reddit pointed out that even tho Comey is out, he still has at least one hearing scheduled with Congress and nothing is stopping him from going to that, as Sally Yates has still been showing up to hearings.  So Comey's story isn't over.

They also pointed out that Sessions was supposed to have recused himself from the Russian ties investigation because he was, well, part of it.  Yet Trump fired Comey on Session's recommendation, which means that he just influenced the investigation very heavily.  Fucking scumbags; I take it back, while Comey deserves to be fired, Trump was absolutely not in the right to do it.  Especially considering the stated reason was for misrepresenting an investigation that Trump has habitually and intentionally distorted the meaning of.  He has no right to sign the letter to Comey with his right hand and give Clinton the middle finger with his left.

[Frumple]

Eh smj, for what it's worth the firing letter is apparently floating around, if it hasn't been linked already. It's... fairly obvious the firing was about investigations (which specific ones, eh, hell if I know). Somehow the bugger couldn't even manage to reign it in enough to make the letter something that wasn't more than just shy of outright explicit.

[smjjames]

There's also another thing, Trump mentioned in his letter that Comey had told him three times that he wasn't under investigation. It turns out that if Comey had actually done that, he'd be violating a whole set of norms and protocols. While nobody except Trump knows what Trump means here (or what he is referring to), it potentially opens a whole other can of worms.

Really, everything about this whole thing screams scandal at every corner and both Republicans and Democrats are concerned over the whole thing.

Eh smj, for what it's worth the firing letter is apparently floating around, if it hasn't been linked already. It's... fairly obvious the firing was about investigations (which specific ones, eh, hell if I know). Somehow the bugger couldn't even manage to reign it in enough to make the letter something that wasn't more than just shy of outright explicit.

I know it was about investigations, the question is "Which one?". Since the Clinton one was closed some time ago, it does seem odd to fire over the Clinton investigation.

[EnigmaticHat]

I think its clear that the (already infamous) you told me 3 times quote was literally Trump trying to invent a paper trail to make the investigation go away.  Of course since Trump himself said that it carries no legal weight whatsoever.  Since GOP controls congress Trump will probably get to think he's clever for a while longer.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Probably doesn't matter anyways. Trump might not have ties with any Russian spymaster but if his close advisors or friends did, it might explain why Trump as so friendly toward Russia right up until that nerve gas attack in Syria.

Also does it really matter anyways, we need to be enemies and provoke conflict and war with the nuclear-weapon wielding Russians like Clinton seemed to prefer or can we just be frienemies?

Anyways, if you impeach Trump you get Pence, who I'm pretty sure barely knows who Trump is. He's just sort of a menacing figure in a bunker far away there to deflect any motives for removing Trump as president.

Guess we'll wait and see.

[smjjames]

Relations with Trump and Putin were already souring somewhat before the Syria strike. Mainly he just kept up the status quo, which made the Russians disappointed as they thought he'd stop doing that.

Anyway, yeah, everybody is pretty much in a wait-and-see mode as to whatever Trumps, or anybody's, next move is.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Relations with Trump and Putin were already souring somewhat before the Syria strike. Mainly he just kept up the status quo, which made the Russians disappointed as they thought he'd stop doing that.

Anyway, yeah, everybody is pretty much in a wait-and-see mode as to whatever Trumps, or anybody's, next move is.

The more I observe Trump's presidency the more I think he is literally like if you grabbed some random opinionated asshole off the street and made him president.

He might be (like myself) yeah, why are we antagonistic with the Russians? Then when he's president, he gets caught up with intelligence briefs and now he's 'Oh, these fucking Russians! I for one support nuclear war against them!'

[misko27]

I wonder what the reaction inside the FBI is like. Supposedly they were blindsided by the move, with members calling reporters to ask whether it was true. If it turns against his removal, his successor will be under a lot of pressure internally, and if that successor is a Trump loyalist, he may not be able to lead the agency - or even control it. What effect will this have on the investigations?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The more I observe Trump's presidency the more I think he is literally like if you grabbed some random opinionated asshole off the street and made him president.

I, for one, would like to see a post-election update on the Demarchy, Obama Invictus, or Giant Meteor 2016 poll.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure I can attribute Trump's actions to malice more than I can attribute them to... not knowing what the fuck he's doing and taking every slice of advice as absolute truth, because he has no confidence in his decision-making as of right now.

Like the whole congratulating Erdogan thing. To me, it was him just not knowing how to react and just did what he thought he should do, completely unaware of the usual stuff that would be done. I said it before, Trump goes off of whatever piece of advice he received last and rolls with it.

Trump, after so long, is finally in a position where he can't just roll with it. Despite what some people say, the Presidency isn't just an inflated celebrity show, and everything you do has consequences. Trump has spent his entire life being in positions where "throw an endless parade of bullshit at it until it goes away" is a real solution to problems. Things are gonna get...cherry-flavored.

I wonder what the reaction inside the FBI is like. Supposedly they were blindsided by the move, with members calling reporters to ask whether it was true. If it turns against his removal, his successor will be under a lot of pressure internally, and if that successor is a Trump loyalist, he may not be able to lead the agency - or even control it. What effect will this have on the investigations?

Expect more leaks, and for more severe topics. It's probably going to be much like the swath of "rogue" federal bureaucracy members, except these ones actually juggle fire.

[smjjames]

I wonder what the reaction inside the FBI is like. Supposedly they were blindsided by the move, with members calling reporters to ask whether it was true. If it turns against his removal, his successor will be under a lot of pressure internally, and if that successor is a Trump loyalist, he may not be able to lead the agency - or even control it. What effect will this have on the investigations?

Pretty much the only people who WEREN'T blindsided by it are Trump, AG Sessions, Deputy AG Rosenstein, and some other WH staffers.

Comey was in LA and learned about it at the same time as everybody else, that's how sudden the whole thing was. It's about as far as you can get from a quiet resignation.

Also, Federal prosecutors have issued grand jury subpoenas to associates of former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn seeking business records (yes, I copypasted the first sentence of the article, heh). If Trump ever thought firing Comey would make the investigation go away, it might skip a beat, but it certainly isn't going away.