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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4151831 times)

Reelya

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As long as it doesn't get to the Obama derangement level where we're defending how sensible NAZIs are, because Obama doesn't like them it's ok.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/1-national-review-defends-holocaust-because-sensible-germans-supported-nazi-party/politics/2013/02/01/59533

sluissa

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The use of "peripheral audience" seems to indicate EH was referring to the Let This Motherfucker Burn vote, who preferred both Bernie and Trump on a nonpartisan antiestablishment basis, as well as those Trump voters who wanted Trump vs. Bernie to ensure an antiestablishment outcome.

I agree that was a line of thinking I saw.

However, claiming that falls under alt right as a group still infuriates me. Alt right has literally just become another label for nazis, for fascists. (Both also often misused, but at least pre-existing and misused for much longer than just the most recent election cycle.)

Alt-right as a word, basically doesn't exist. It just the nickname given to the "enemy" by the left wing. A label to dehumanize people so they don't need to consider their opinions.
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Reelya

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http://www.news.com.au/world/donald-trumps-air-strikes-on-syria-were-free-afterdinner-entertainment-for-the-us-president/news-story/3354ae781eb585ac327f042ddfe494f9
Quote
DONALD Trump’s air strike against Syria last month was “after-dinner entertainment” at his Florida resort while he was hosting China’s President.

Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross, who was with the US President when he ordered the attacks on April 6, made the stunning comparison at a conference in California overnight.

“It was in lieu of after-dinner entertainment,” Mr Ross said of the 57 missiles that hit Syria’s Shayrat air base, according to Variety.

Uh ... forget "1950s mentality" this is more like something befitting 19th century colonial attitudes.

The idea of raining death on real people as "after dinner entertainment" ... need I say more. Where does Trump find these people? And the whole thing basically gives away that the attacks were staged to impress / imtimidate the Chinese. The timing of the attack at 8:40pm at night was almost certainly so they could be livestreamed to the US / Chinese President's meeting.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 09:59:56 am by Reelya »
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Azzuro

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What the fuck.

Although I don't see how these strikes are supposed to impress the Chinese once word got out that they informed the Russians beforehand, thus indirectly informing the Syrian government.
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EnigmaticHat

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The use of "peripheral audience" seems to indicate EH was referring to the Let This Motherfucker Burn vote, who preferred both Bernie and Trump on a nonpartisan antiestablishment basis, as well as those Trump voters who wanted Trump vs. Bernie to ensure an antiestablishment outcome.

I agree that was a line of thinking I saw.

However, claiming that falls under alt right as a group still infuriates me. Alt right has literally just become another label for nazis, for fascists. (Both also often misused, but at least pre-existing and misused for much longer than just the most recent election cycle.)

Alt-right as a word, basically doesn't exist. It just the nickname given to the "enemy" by the left wing. A label to dehumanize people so they don't need to consider their opinions.
No, its not.  I've been using this term for half a decade now.

It refers to a decentralized online conservative movement that has adopted the language of progressives but with the opposite aims.  Stormfront, Breitbart, and extremely racist/anti-immigrant forums (like /r coon town) form the "white nationalist" (not that I'll ever use such a respectful term for them) branch of the alt right.  So some Neo-Nazis are contained within the alt right, but not all racist/anti-immigrant groups are alt right.  For example, the KKK wishes they were part of the anti-immigrant Trump coalition, but they aren't.  This is because they lack one of the core methods the alt-right needs, which is deniability.  If I go on a news site and make a post about how black people are a plague, I need to be able to say "wow, so triggered" or "shows how much respect the left has for dissenting views" when I get downvoted into oblivion.  And the other alt right guy in the comments needs to be able to go "wow, we're not ALL like that guy."  The KKK has official membership and is already known as a hate group, with them you lose that transparent veil of deniability.  Thus even tho they want to be part of the vastly more successful than them (in modern times at least) Brietbart coalition, they cannot be allowed in.

But that "neo-nazi" branch of the movement (which yes is not all LITERALLY neo-nazis but are so ideologically similar that its a fair label) is just one branch.  You've also got the anti-feminist branch.  This consists of MRAs, /r theredpill, and pretty much any forum where you can say you've been friendzoned and no one will call you out.  These groups commonly assume the trappings of progressive and activist movements but they commonly espouse conspiracy theories about women.  Expect them to claim feminists have much more power than they actually do, and to act like women owe them sex.  If you remember Return of Kings, they pretty much summarized the whole thing.  If someone in the youtube comment sections says "we should lower the price of pussy" you know where they came from.

Those are, IIRC, the two main branches that are big enough to be called branches.  There's also smaller ones like gamergate.  The alt right target audience of young angry white guys has always been floating around on the internet, congregating on place like 4chan, but now things have gotten *slightly* more centralized and explicit (which is why people are now equating 4chan with ideological movements instead of just random trolls; the archetypical 4chan user is exactly the kind of person that would log into the wrong subreddit and be like "wow, they're saying what I really think", so a lot of them really did get lapped up into the alt right).  The power of the alt right is controlling conversation.  Sometimes this means using bots and heavy moderation to create the illusion that everyone agrees on things.  Sometimes it means using trolling to obscure whether you're serious or not.  But more often than not it means moving the goalposts by mis-defining tolerance and free speech so that they defend you (I can go into detail on that if anyone cares).

The age gap in the Republican party is much more extreme than the one in the democratic party.  Until a few short years ago the religious right still had a death grip on the far right dialogue and they still do influence a large number of older voters.  But young extremists in the Republican party are almost invariably alt right instead of fundamentalist.  Even tho those two groups are objectionable to outsiders for similar reasons, they're very different from each other on a lot of levels.  Anyway, there's another split in the Republican party, which is that younger (and some middle aged) economic issues Republicans tend to be libertarians.  More accurately they're part of a wider young moderate (well, more accurately just not extreme) coalition that also notably includes the pot legalization movement, which is huge among all young people right or left.  This crowd is not part of the alt right, but is vaguely more sympathetic to them than everyone else is and also rubs shoulders with them a lot on the internet.  While actual dual membership in both the young Republican and alt-right coalitions isn't that common AFAIK, the young Republican coalition is bleeding members into the alt right.  Those two coalitions together formed the crowd that was sympathetic to Bernie Sanders.  Angry young people who saw him as another outsider screwed by the system.  They admired his frank attitudes, the fact that he's a white guy who's pro-legalization, and the fact that he too was screwed by Shillary/democrats/the system.  This was always the overlap between Trump supporters and Bernie supporters, that they both wanted to elect an outsider.  The irony is that the far left and the far right got in bed together based on essentially an illusion; those few foolish Bernie supporters that actually voted for Trump haven't got what they wanted and Trump supporters damn well wouldn't have gotten what they wanted out of Bernie.
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sluissa

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Sounds like you're just saying, "All these people I don't like? Whey're in this group we can hate even though they often have little to nothing to do with each other." Mixed in with some George Soros and the Koch Bros. team up to save the world levels of conspiracy theorizing.
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Reelya

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"All these people I don't like? Whey're in this group we can hate

I think you're doing EnigmaHat a big disservice. He specificaly excluded white nationalists as a specific part of the alt right (except to mention that a person can be both), and also excluded the christian right as members. He's not lumping in anyone with anything, he actuallly broke it down in a very interesting way.

And the Koch Brothers / Soros thing was uncalled for, since he clearly stated this was an organic sort of movement, not a puppet-controlled organization. And it's especially disingenious since you strongly insinuated anyone using a term like alt-right at all was some sort of mindless HillaryBot drone.

Bannon & co do in fact self-label as "alt-right" so it's not just a pejorative. "alt right" is probably as specific as a term like "progressives" is. Just saying "progressives" does not imply any sort of conspiracy, it's just a broad-based description of a sociopolitical alignment. And progressives routinely distance themselves from groups such as PETA, which isn't all that different from modern alt-right types seeking to distance themselves from the KKK, there's no conspiracy there, just common sense.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:46:07 pm by Reelya »
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TheBiggerFish

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I kind of have to agree with Reelya.
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It has been determined that Trump is an average unladen swallow travelling northbound at his maximum sustainable speed of -3 Obama-cubits per second in the middle of a class 3 hurricane.

sluissa

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"All these people I don't like? Whey're in this group we can hate

I think you're doing EnigmaHat a big disservice. He specificaly excluded white nationalists as a specific part of the alt right (except to mention that a person can be both), and also excluded the christian right as members. He's not lumping in anyone with anything, he actuallly broke it down in a very interesting way.

And the Koch Brothers / Soros thing was uncalled for, since he clearly stated this was an organic sort of movement, not a puppet-controlled organization. And it's especially disingenious since you strongly insinuated anyone using a term like alt-right at all was some sort of mindless HillaryBot drone.

Bannon & co do in fact self-label as "alt-right" so it's not just a pejorative. "alt right" is probably as specific as a term like "progressives" is. Just saying "progressives" does not imply any sort of conspiracy, it's just a broad-based description of a sociopolitical alignment. And progressives routinely distance themselves from groups such as PETA, which isn't all that different from modern alt-right types seeking to distance themselves from the KKK, there's no conspiracy there, just common sense.

As he said himself, the white nationalists/KKK are already hated enough they don't need a new label. Christian right is, depending on your stance, already demonized enough, or dangerous to demonize in that you might drive away moderates that identify as christian.

Bannon might identify as it, just as many others, but it's more a response to the label being used by the left than it is a self identification, much like how many conservatives took up the label "deplorable" during the election after Clinton used it in a now infamous speech.

I also call bullshit on it "being a term" beyond just this election period.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=alt-right,alt%20right

Google trends suggest that there was basically no activity of it until early to mid last year. "alt-right" showed nothing and "alt right" showed only very minor noise at the 0-1 range of popularity, perhaps because alt and right are popular keys on the keyboard.

Once again, I think it's just become a catchall term to label them as other and thus not worthy of acknowledgement. You're basically saying it's fair to label someone who was angry at Sanders being shoved out by the same label as you'd call a violent neo-nazi threatening violence against minorities. Just calling them "republicans" or "conservatives" was getting old and many people were starting to realize that "Hey, these are people too, the whole party isn't full of these violent racists, many of them just want something different from what I want and that's not entirely unreasonable." So a new label had to be thought up, and what better time to come up with a new label as when you've got such a strange and turbulent election as we did with Trump.

That being said there are some fair points there in that there is a divide in the republican party between the older and younger generation that want very different things from their party. If the label had been limited to the extremists, maybe it would have flown, but as it is it falls under the same sort of shouting of "fascist" that we're hearing so often these days. A word without meaning, shouted with far too much passion, at people the shouter has no knowledge of.
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Neonivek

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I thought we always had terms for different groups, subgroups, and factions within the two party system.

Like the Tea Party.
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EnigmaticHat

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Apparently Richard Spencer used it 7 years ago.  I will concede that I've used a variety of terms over time (first MRA then redpiller now alt right) and I don't remember when I switched to using alt right.  I definitely meant about the same thing with each term (although each refers to a larger group).

Yes, the KKK doesn't need a new label.  But the alt right is a different thing from the KKK.  I personally dislike the phrase "white nationalist" altogether because I think its a cleaned up euphemism.  But anyway, like I said in my post the alt right and white nationalist overlap but plenty in one movement aren't in the other.

Both Republicans and Democrats are coalition movements.  The Republicans are currently locked in a 3+ way internal struggle and you can't properly describe recent events without labeling the factions.

I said it was both the young right coalition and the alt right that were sympathetic to Sanders.  I never said the young right coalition was racist, I said they included libertarians and pro-legalization people.
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

sluissa

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I thought we always had terms for different groups, subgroups, and factions within the two party system.

Like the Tea Party.

Except the tea party is a relatively well identified group founded around a specific goal of economic conservatism, often specifically about balancing the national budget. Granted, that has kind of been blurred a bit since it became a boon for politicians to claim to be tea party affiliated in elections while sometimes not particularly following any such goals while in office.

Casting such a wide net with the "alt right" label is just as bad as casting a wide net with the "progressive" label. You can pick and choose examples of extremism from both sides and when you start doing that it becomes as logically ridiculous as "You know who else drank water and breathed oxygen? Hitler."
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Dorsidwarf

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Good thing people on this forum and elsewhere never mock progressives, lump all the liberals under the term "progressive" or joke that progressives are the enemy of society.




That sure would be terrible if someone used that in their arguments  ::)
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Neonivek

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Good thing people on this forum and elsewhere never mock progressives, lump all the liberals under the term "progressive" or joke that progressives are the enemy of society.

I tend to use the moniker Pseudo or Faux progressives when I am trying to distinguish between people who are trying to be progressive...

And people who are basically asking for the removal of free speech, start of segregation, and infantilization of women in the media.

There is a difference.
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Rusty Shackleford

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In my experience this is one of the most consistently left leaning forums I've been to.

Not real sure why.
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