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[Lord Shonus]

A big part of what helped Naizism along in Germany was the fact that there wasn't much in the way of government tradition. When the Nazis came to power, there were still old people that remembered the rise of the Second Reich (formed in 1871) that unified Germany, and the Weimar Republic was less than a generation when it collapsed to form the Third Reich. The US, with one of the oldest continually operating governments in the world (Britain's government is older, and there's probably a few I haven't thought of) and a long tradition of having peaceable transitions of power, is something of a different situation, and the path to dictatorship would have to follow a much different course.

[Strife26]

People cry foul about all those things all the time. When a government enforces law that considers hitting someone with a car based on orientation to be a mitigating factor in the crime, then we can talk.

Actually, 27 transgender murders reported in 2016 by that Advocate article. Transgender individuals self identify at .3% of the US population in 2011 according to wikipedia. For simplicity's sake, we can estimate the 2016 transgender population of the United States at 1 million (about a third of a percent of about 300 million people)

That puts the murder rate for transgender people at underneath the intentional homicide rate for the US as a whole, 2.7 vs 3.9 per 100,000.

Considering the significantly higher levels of correlation of transgender people with other high risk tendencies (homelessness, drug use, ect, a societal problem in and of itself), the transgender murder rate is nothing especially shocking. People get killed and it sucks, but it's no more of a national crisis than heroin overdose or death by heart disease.

[Strife26]

People cry foul about all those things all the time. When a government enforces law that considers hitting someone with a car based on orientation to be a mitigating factor in the crime, then we can talk.

So we should just wait for a government that not only ignores but actively encourages and legalizes discrimination and actual murder before "we can talk" about this, whatever that means? I'm not exactly sure what point you're even trying to make.

You can talk about it all you'd like, but it's nothing that goes beyond general political speech. There's no cause for the shitty violence we're seeing over leftist causes. For comparison, the US veteran death rate purely from suicide is about ten times that rate (20 per day out of a population of 21.8 million), but it'd be patently absurd for someone to start a violent protest against the VA.

Edit for clarification: the cause of Transgender safety deserves more consideration than any other issue, that is to say, government action is based on the actions of elected and appointed representatives with the established limits of the American system. Speech against transgender interests should be no more illegal than calling a vet a babykiller or another car in traffic an asshole.

[i2amroy]

Authorities, who at first classified this as an aggravated assault, are investigating the case as a homicide -– claiming it is too early on in the investigation to confirm whether the attack was a hate crime.

I especially like about the authorities being unsure if it is a hate crime. It's not like she was ran over three times, no, not at all.

Not attempting to pick apart or stand against your argument (I agree with a fair number of your points), but the defining point of whether or not something is a hate crime is not whether or not the person is a persecuted minority, but whether or not the reason for the crime is driven on that fact. If I knew a transgender asian and I hit them with my car and proceeded to run over them 2-3x until I was sure that they were dead but the motivation for the crime was because I was jealous of the fact that they had been promoted at my job and I hadn't, then despite the fact that they were a persecuted LGBT minority would not make that a hate crime. And as such the police would be completely justified in claiming that they couldn't confirm whether the attack was a hate crime or not; until they work out who did it and what their motivations might be it's impossible to say whether said motivations were driven by an attempt to persecute someone or if they were based on other factors (as a matter of fact the vast majority of murder cases by far, even against persecuted minorities, happen based off of other factors).

Again, I agree with you that persecution exists, but I think you need to be careful not to falsely ascribe (or pull from sources that falsely ascribe due to bias) reasoning behind actions (because it makes it much easier for people who disagree with you to bog you down in technicalities). Skimming the full first list you found I'm finding several of them outright linked to crimes or robberies, which means it is very likely that said crimes were not racially/persecution driven and therefore were not "hate crimes" per even the more generalized definition despite what that website might claim (in fact it seems that that first link is closer to a compilation of transgendered people who were likely killed due to other reasons and then happened to be misgendered in the news reports than it is to a list of actual hate crimes from all of the ones that I looked at).

For what it's worth while I agree with many of your reasonings I do agree with Strife on the idea that violence is almost never the answer. Hatred begets hatred and all that jazz, and setting yourself violently against a group will almost always simply result in polarizing defense walls into place such that it becomes impossible to change your opponents at all due to firmly rooting yourself in their "other" while driving the moderates to take their side.

[Starver]

Strife: I get where you're coming from, but are you really saying we need to give benefit of the doubt to literal meine-kampfe quoting neo-nazis?

It's Mein Kampf (my struggle, singular) and not meine Kämpfe (my struggles, plural)

I think she's referring to the sequel, published by Nueva Tercera Edatorial, Buenos Aires, in 1946...

[Reelya]

That puts the murder rate for transgender people at underneath the intentional homicide rate for the US as a whole, 2.7 vs 3.9 per 100,000.

The way you came up with those figures is pretty BS. You can't assume that the 26 deaths that one NGO knows about represents all the incidents against transgender people in the entire USA. Those are only the ones they found out about, those statistics aren't actually tracked by the authorities because they often just cite the killed person as lesbian or gay and don't have a reporting categoryr for transgender at all.

There's basically no official reporting mechanism for this type of crime at all, so any number on a some activist website is basically only the stories they stitched together through reading newspapers and getting tips from the public. Any number there is clearly massively underestimated, because it's not based on actual homicide figures but word of mouth. The fact that it's even close to the total homicide rate for the entire nation is actually informative: the real amount would be a lot higher if there was any sort of consistent record keeping about gender identity, however most police forces don't track that.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/

The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (NCAVP) began to collect data concerning attacks upon trans-people in 1995. While NCAVP documented only 69 such attacks in 1995 (2% of their entire sample), they believe that violence against trans-people is pervasive and grossly underreported (NCAVP, 1995). NCAVP could not draw any definite conclusions because of the small sample size. However, they did find that while trans-people made up only 2% of their entire sample, trans-people made up 16% of all murder victims. For the most part, these incidents either go unreported or are misreported as anti-gay/lesbian incidents.

It's population sampling only, but the trans people in the sample experienced homicide rates around 8 times above average.

[Strife26]

Yeah, it's easy enough to quibble about numbers and go to one LGBT advocacy agency or another for the information. It doesn't change the final calculus that the world's a shitty place but all the mechanisms are in perfect place to change it without going to collect nazi scalps.

[Reelya]

You're on a tangent now, your claims were shot down now you're deflecting the topic to something else entirely.

Well the reason people go to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs is that nobody else is collecting the data needed. Which kind of proves the point about the data being scanty, and thus any "list" of deaths is going to be woefully incomplete. The fact that just a hobbled-together list is already near the average homicide rate is in fact shocking. If law enforcement actually kept records about this, the number could only go up.

To say the list is complete, you'd need to claim that the group making the list is 100% efficient at finding out about these sorts of homicides. Which is outside the realms of believability. It would actually be more plausible that this group compiling it's own homicide list is 10% efficient at finding relevant cases, not 100% efficient, which would put the relative death rate around where NCAVP's data puts it, around 8 times higher than the general population.

[Strife26]

The tangent is the salient point. There's no reason why "violence for protection of trans people" deserves to be considered differently than "violence for the prevention of drug ODs" or "violence for the protection of animals" or "violence for the establishment of government based on the 10 Commandments"

[i2amroy]

Ah fair point, thanks for the clarification.

[Strife26]

I can accept that, but the "value" of any cause is determined only by the will of the people after it's been thrown onto the marketplace of ideas.

[Helgoland]

Maybe we should start calling it the 'drunk hooligan bar fight of ideas' rather than a marketplace. It's a much better description of what's going on.

[Neonivek]

Where have we seen this kind of violence between two extreme and unrepresentative sides while the center collapses after failing to deal with it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmm, not coming to me.

REALLY not the same thing here.

For one Neonazis have absolutely no popular support.

[redwallzyl]

Where have we seen this kind of violence between two extreme and unrepresentative sides while the center collapses after failing to deal with it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmm, not coming to me.

REALLY not the same thing here.

certainly not to the same level but its reminiscent.

[SalmonGod]

Where have we seen this kind of violence between two extreme and unrepresentative sides while the center collapses after failing to deal with it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmm, not coming to me.

REALLY not the same thing here.

For one Neonazis have absolutely no popular support.

The "alt-right" on the other hand...