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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4465450 times)

Baffler

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Yeah I can understand it NOW being a bad idea... but why is it a sort of end times entity?

Why is it a freeken boogeyman?

Because it's a terrible idea, even among terrible ideas, yet for some reason it just won't die.
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Neonivek

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Yeah I can understand it NOW being a bad idea... but why is it a sort of end times entity?

Why is it a freeken boogeyman?

Because it's a terrible idea, even among terrible ideas, yet for some reason it just won't die.

But isn't it absolutely necessary for a post scarcity society?

AND World Peace?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 10:12:48 pm by Neonivek »
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NullForceOmega

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The problem is that it can't happen until the whole world is reduced to what amounts to a single culture, and that is on the way, but not with any kind of speed.  Maybe in two or three centuries if we can prevent a general societal collapse of the first world til then.  And that seems increasingly unlikely.
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NullForceOmega

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Less death of culture, more homogenization.  But yes, many people oppose this, as even if it goes well, there will be loss of traditions and historical ties, they will be unfortunate casualties of the process.  I do support this homogenization, but would like steps to be taken to minimize the losses.  Probably not going to happen, as we're kind of treading on thin ice with the current global political situation.
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Telgin

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Culture can be nice, but culture can also be a cesspit that needs to be reworked.  See the still very alive racist component of the southeastern USA for an example of what I'm talking about.  I'd be cheerleading the death of that if it meant it was replaced with something less terrible.  If homogenization would fix it, I'd be cheerleading that too.

But then maybe I'm just the weird southern guy who never understood the need to bolt a Confederate flag to a pickup truck and slap "Here's my nuclear deal!" bumper stickers on it, depicting us nuking Iran.

Culture is multifaceted anyway.  You can destroy the racist part of the southeast US's culture without affecting the rest of it.  And I don't think an even larger country / world wide government would really necessitate or even have much impact on local cultures.  Changes in law would matter, of course, but off the top of my head the biggest impacts I can see there would be human rights related.  I would expect a single world government to mandate and enforce basic human rights (like for women) that aren't currently respected in many parts of the world, but it's not like big brother is going to get rid of NASCAR and mustard based BBQ.  Or bagpipes.  Or whatever.

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Why is it a freeken boogeyman?

Because Obama didn't take the guns away while on office, so obviously the UN soldiers he put in hiding at the FEMA death camps are going to do it.  The threat of a single world government is a convenient scapegoat for almost anything, so it leads itself to being made into a bogeyman.  It's distant, so it doesn't care about you.  It sounds menacing, so it actually has your active disinterests at heart.  It's going to send the Muslims to your front door to cut your head off.  Whatever you're scared of, it's capable of doing it and wants to.
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Rolepgeek

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The problem is that it can't happen until the whole world is reduced to what amounts to a single culture, and that is on the way, but not with any kind of speed.  Maybe in two or three centuries if we can prevent a general societal collapse of the first world til then.  And that seems increasingly unlikely.
Not by any means. There's a number of governments with multiple cultures under them. Look at the USA, for starters. Or do you mean an ideal world government?

I mean, I also don't see it as being necessary to post-scarcity society; just need strong international cooperation, for that, mostly. World government leads to all sorts of internal strife due to conflicting interests and broad stroked laws. And if the laws aren't being applied just about everywhere, what's the point of having one world government? Finance simplification?

Plus, there will always be some nations that resist, if only because being independent is part of their pride to be who they are. I can see Finland telling the OWG to fuck off, for example, especially if Russia is part of it. Which means war for the purpose of subduing that. More likely are economic blocs with very close ties and interdependence becoming catalyzed by war to band together even more and just sort of tie their bonds closer and closer until they're essentially a federal system. You get one of those that wins a massive shooting and/or trade war and makes a point of not letting people have good deals unless they join and maybe you get something like a world government.

Or if extraterrestrials arrive with violent intent. Or get shot because we think they're a meteor on collision course with us and then decide 'well fuck those guys'.


But I would put odds on Putin continuing to pressure, try and work with Turkey(ish) to split up EU and disrupt welfare programs to cause chaos to prevent effective response to them eating a couple countries or at least regions. Whether they'll just try to leverage that and digest or push more is another question.
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Greiger

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Wow... I had no idea Hilary Clinton was going to create a one world government... Thank goodness Donald Trump saved us

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/the-main-reason-for-the-hate-against-donald-trump

Believe it or not I was actually trying to research if there was a non-biblical reason why a one world government is a bad thing (even if properly implemented). Since... I always thought that is kind of the final stage of lasting world peace.
Wow.  I was taught that some people are just raised differently and have different views, they think themselves as right just as much as you think you are.  While I have not always been perfect at it, (I've probably failed from time to time in this very thread) I try to be understanding, I really do.

But does anyone seriously believe this crap?  That article sounds more like the ravings of a madman than a news article.  It sounds even more nutzo than the article by some eagle activists group I read recently calling wind farms evil intentional bird depopulation machines.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 01:20:56 am by Greiger »
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martinuzz

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In Fresno, a 39 year old man locally known as 'Black Jesus' killed 3 people while emptying his gun in the streets, firing 16 shots. He shot one truck driver, then a random person in the street, and finally he entered a parking garage of a catholic charity institute, where he shot a local volunteer. He screamed at the police that he wanted to kill as many white people as possible. His social media profiles also show that the man hates white people, and authorities. While he was being arrested and brought to the ground, he shouted 'Allah Akhbar'. According to the police though, there is no link at all with terrorism, this is just a black guy who really hates white people.
 
The police were already looking for him, for killing a security guard in a hotel, last week.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/amerikaanse-politie-schutter-doodde-drie-slachtoffers-omdat-ze-blank-waren~a4488488/
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 01:49:51 am by martinuzz »
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

scriver

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Less death of culture, more homogenization.

These are one and the same.

Culture is multifaceted anyway.  You can destroy the racist part of the southeast US's culture without affecting the rest of it.  And I don't think an even larger country / world wide government would really necessitate or even have much impact on local cultures.  Changes in law would matter, of course, but off the top of my head the biggest impacts I can see there would be human rights related.  I would expect a single world government to mandate and enforce basic human rights (like for women) that aren't currently respected in many parts of the world, but it's not like big brother is going to get rid of NASCAR and mustard based BBQ.  Or bagpipes.  Or whatever.

In the end laws are the foremost expressions of culture.

And don't kid yourself into thinking that only bad and unjust laws would be the ones to go. Just take the EU for example and how they are constantly nagging at Swedish state opacity rights - those wouldn't last two seconds in a One Europe Order, let alone a world union.

On a further scale of criticism against a world state is that it wouldn't function as a democratically. Democracies function best the smaller they are. The closer to the voter power lays, the more power the voter has to hold the power accountable. Democracy functions best when people are culturally united with common thoughts, values, and customs, not to mention geographic placement. There is no rational reason a bunch of Frenchmen should get to rule over Sweden and Swedish people and resources, but in a One Europe Order they would just by sheer mass of their populace.

The above is even more important when it comes to welfare states. They require a strong, united core, and trust and loyalty between people otherwise people are not going to be okay with making sacrifices to ease the troubles of strangers. This is actually the main reason I think the US will never develop a functional welfare system  - Americans simply seem to functionally lack any ability (or perhaps it's more a matter of willingness) to solidaritate with their fellow Americans on an impersonal level, and it is far too big for the on-the-personal-level otherwise generous culture to be enough. Similarly, the Scandinavian welfare states so often held up as an example to follow by American liberals only managed to succeed the way they did because of the strong nationalist sentiment of the times - that's what bound people together and have them a sense of common purpose and community - and as nationalist sentiment has weakened, so has the functionality of the welfare state. People are less trusting, less willing to work for each other, and more willing to abuse the system for their own gain.

Speaking of which - in a global welfare state there'd still be the question of differing work ethics, but on the much grander cultural level as proposed to just personal, so ittķwould be mych more unjust.Just imagine the whole populace of Japan literally working themselves to death ťñþso some lazy British chavs can lazily half-arse their way through life.
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Reelya

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State-wide welfare can also be exploited by leaders. e.g. Red States eat up a lot of welfare money, mainly from Blue States, then lambast the recipients, when in fact the local businesses are benefiting from that inflow of tax dollars. Basically the federal welfare empowers the GOP to enact policies that funnel money into the pockets of their local cronies, and because of welfare arrangements the negative consequences of that are offset by federal welfare money. They can then blame the recipients of the dollars for the economic crisis in their region, when in fact local business leaders are effectively being federally subsidized for their bad behavior and manipulation of state politics.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 04:08:05 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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More apt-- "PIGS"-  Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain.

Or, have we all collectively forgotten about the forced austerity, and how Germany basically unilaterally TOLD Greece that it WOULD pay it back, no exceptions?

Any welfare state, in a global super-government, would face the same kind of fate, because they consume more resources than they produce, leading to contempt from other member states.

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Reelya

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I'm not sure the data backs that up.

For example if you look at the Greek crisis, the early recommendations weren't that they were spending too much on welfare, it was excessively high government salaries, plus too much of GDP going into the military rather than productive uses.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-greeces-military-budget-is-so-high-2015-6?r=US&IR=T

They have one of the highest military expenditures per GDP in all of Europe. Other more prosperous nations in Europe actually spend much more on taking care of civilians. Taking care of your actual civilians creates a lot of jobs, much more than importing jet fighters and tanks does.

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2014/11/27/2053392/welfare-spending-across-the-oecd/
There's no real connection between welfare spending levels and whether you're one of the bailer-outers or being bailed-out.

If you look at the current top 4 welfare spenders in Europe they are France, Finland, Belgium, Denmark, all of which are doing pretty fine, and all of which have massively increased welfare spending since 10 years ago.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 04:29:08 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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Where the money is spent is not important there, Reelya. The "welfare" is to the client nation, not its citizenry.  The rest of the collective is paying for the expensive upkeep of that client nation, in the same way that a society would be paying for the expensive upkeep of dependent citizens.

Your argument would have parallels with telling people on food stamps that they cannot spend their money how they like, because the money they spend on "non essentials" is made up for with the food stamps. (EG, insisting that they spend all their money on food, and living with material goods poverty, when that can be overcome by judicious use of foodstamps to provide food, and using what money they do have to buy culturally important "luxury" items.)

What happened to greece, is like telling such a recipient that their big screen TV is an affront-- and that they must stop buying such things, and must spend all their own money on food, because the other people subsidizing them do not want to enable purchases of bigscreen TVs. Moreover, they must REFUND the equivalent value of those purchases.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 04:30:58 am by wierd »
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Reelya

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You shouldn't use the term "Welfare State" then because that already has a strongly associated preexisting definition, specifically, referring to nations with a strong safety net for individual citizens (healthcare, education, welfare etc).

Maybe come up with another term to describe what you mean, because Welfare State already has a different commonly-understood meaning to what you're talking about.

wierd

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The confusion of terms was not intentional. I do not know that there even *IS* a term for this.
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