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[Sheb]

So this happened:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-reverses-pledge-to-mandate-us-steel-for-keystone_us_58bbae99e4b0fa65b844b451

I don't know what to think.  I suspect it's just a blunder by Trump administration.

Well, some steel was already bought for Keystone XL, it makes no sense to dump it to buy new pipes.

[smjjames]

So this happened:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-reverses-pledge-to-mandate-us-steel-for-keystone_us_58bbae99e4b0fa65b844b451

I don't know what to think.  I suspect it's just a blunder by Trump administration.

Well, some steel was already bought for Keystone XL, it makes no sense to dump it to buy new pipes.

And they were about to sue the US government on NAFTA grounds I believe, but yes, it makes no sense for a project that was already under way and the pipes had already been bought.

If they had to buy American steel from then on, I suppose it would make some sense. There is that Russian oligarch connection, but that's not particularily surprising because oil, lets see what happens from here on out.

Also, 'Rosebud Sioux'? lol

[Puzzlemaker]

Yeah I figured it was something like that.  The administration just needs to be a lot more careful with what they say/do.  Lots of eyes on them right now.

[redwallzyl]

Yeah I figured it was something like that.  The administration just needs to be a lot more careful with what they say/do.  Lots of eyes on them right now.

your saying that like they have ever cared or attempted to be not crazy.

[PTTG??]

Vault 7's opened up a ton of secret CIA tools. I haven't looked through it yet, but the rumors say that they can basically turn any phone into a listening device.

Interesting how as soon as Trump gets in an argument with someone, Wikileaks releases something about that someone.

Not defending the CIA, of course. It's just that we won't really be safe until the last Republican is strangled with the entrails of the last CIA goon.

[redwallzyl]

i hope the issues that let them do whatever they can do are fixed rather quickly now that this stuff is being spread around. some things should probably remain secret.

[Hanslanda]

Vault 7's opened up a ton of secret CIA tools. I haven't looked through it yet, but the rumors say that they can basically turn any phone into a listening device.

Interesting how as soon as Trump gets in an argument with someone, Wikileaks releases something about that someone.

Not defending the CIA, of course. It's just that we won't really be safe until the last Republican is strangled with the entrails of the last CIA goon.

They've been able to do that for probably 10 or 15 years now. I've known for a long time that any cell phone can be a listening device with the right software. I actually remember reading that the only way you can prevent that is by removing the battery from the phone. Otherwise they can remotely turn it on and activate your microphone without the phone even being on.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

I would wonder what would happen should the European powers had been delayed in the development by a few hundred years. Would the America's have developed a stronger culture, or would they remained in their tribal groups without unification in any real, tangible manner that lasted?

I figure that there's a decent chance of minor to major unification, but probably no brotherhood from sea to shining sea. But...

Edoot: Arguably, the Aztecs were the most far along. But they also had latent internal issues that might have kept them from developing for a longer period of time.

Ah, there's my geographical something-centrism again. I assumed we were discussing the North American natives. Yeah... there were a few tribes down there that were freaky bad (if the history is correct; "the savage brutes" might just have been a European myth. Or maybe not; "the wonderful noble savages" is probably incorrect too). (And of course it only seems freaky bad because it's so alien; an Aztec might say the same thing about today's society, based on something-or-other.)

Second doot: Arguably speaking further, the Native American population crashed hard as soon as European illnesses got thrown into the mix. Recovering from that, then attempting to form their own respective nations again would have been a monumental task.

...following from the first not-doot, yeah, I don't think the natives could have repelled the Europeans, no matter how unified they were. They could not have expected biological warfare. European colonists - the first American terrorists?

Also, there are good reasons that many animals aren't domesticated. You can't just take any animal and domesticate it. Only animals with certain mentalities and instincts will work.

You sure? I'm remembering these wild foxes that were domesticated in only a few generations, using only artificial selection.

If it was possible and useful, it was done already, excluding modern efforts aided by fancy new methods.

Not all animals have had the privilege of existing near a newborn, innovating species. If I come across a Blurtschpouf, perhaps I will not domesticate it. Maybe I don't know how, because the innovation was lost. Maybe I simply won't, because I didn't put the right ideas together and think "hmm, these Blurtschpoufs could be useful for X!" Maybe I'm not allowed to, because the High Floofa has decreed that only pigs and elephants can be domesticated. Maybe I simply see no reason to, but if I had, then the immunity my society would have developed would have protected it from the Invasion of the Land-Snatchers.

In a nutshell, human societies are not perfect optimizing machines, and some natural resources will go unused.

That’s what America is about, a land of dreams and opportunity,

That's what America is about, a land of awful working conditions and forced employment,

[redwallzyl]

in regards to the human sacrifice thing it was ostensibly to give honor and sustenance to the gods. it definitely became a tool of oppression with the Aztecs though.

we basically domesticated everything that was useful and practical to domesticate. so I'd say we did fairly well. one of the reasons lots of animals went domesticated was to do with them either not being psychologically suited for it, large carnivores or generally really dangerous. some like elephants may be technically domestication but are incredibly impractical and in efficient to raise and others like say bison are way to dangerous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals

you will notice that their really aren't that many of them and they tend to fall into a few fairly similar groupings. i do know a fair amount about this as it is relevant to my field of study. your points are rather weak and nonsensical.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

in regards to the human sacrifice thing it was ostensibly to give honor and sustenance to the gods. it definitely became a tool of oppression with the Aztecs though.

And the Holocaust was ostensibly to protect and uphold the Aryan people from the threat of Jewish uprisings. I don't give a teapot what their justification was - murder is bad, period, and a society that praises and ritualizes murder gets a weighty negative utility whatsit no matter what justification they give.

And yes, I'm aware that my culture is also pretty bad, it glorifies violence, yes I know. I'm not saying "The Aztecs were bad and we're so much better," I'm saying "the Aztecs fucking killed people and that's a fucking bad thing." Sorry if I seem a little grumpy, but I'm sick of the whole not-as-bad-as stuff in social justice movements and I'm on edge and anticipating a wrathful condemnation of my clearly ethnocentric racist thoughts at any point. You know, because I didn't say "and we're Just As Bad" enough times.

...I should really get the hell out of Reddit, except for gaming stuff. It is poison for the soul.

we basically domesticated everything that was useful and practical to domesticate. so I'd say we did fairly well. one of the reasons lots of animals went domesticated was to do with them either not being psychologically suited for it, large carnivores or generally really dangerous. some like elephants may be technically domestication but are incredibly impractical and in efficient to raise and others like say bison are way to dangerous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals

you will notice that their really aren't that many of them and they tend to fall into a few fairly similar groupings. i do know a fair amount about this as it is relevant to my field of study. your points are rather weak and nonsensical.

Hmmph. I just found another personal bias - if someone doesn't capitalize their words, they seem less reliable. Perhaps If You Wrote Like This For A Post, The Effects Would Cancel Out?

I'm not really invested in my Correctness. Those were just some related thoughts I had. "If what you say is true, then how come X?" Not a loaded question, not Just Asking Questions. Literally just asking questions. Lowercase, not capitalized.

So perhaps those wild foxes were naturally inclined toward the sort of behaviors you'd want in a domestic animal? I thought that foxes seemed like an "average common wild animal" in terms of domesticationabilificationability, but maybe they're not; I'm certainly no expert.

And the "human societies are not perfect optimization machines" paragraph was just a criticism of "If it could have been done [and it was useful], it would have been done." You can't say that the history of domestication is the Literal Best it could Possibly have Been - surely there's some society with a nearby animal that could have been productively domesticated, but wasn't.

[Descan]

I'm actually not sure why foxes weren't domesticated earlier; I don't know enough about the soviet program to know if they used some sort of technique or technology that could not have been used by cavemen in the year TEN THOUSAND BC!

but I know things like Deer are too skittish and jumpy to be domesticate; you can't really cage them in, they don't form packs like cows or horses do so you can't become a surrogate pack leader, Buffalo are too strong to be caged by wooden or even stone fencing, things like that.

[Neonivek]

I'm actually not sure why foxes weren't domesticated earlier; I don't know enough about the soviet program to know if they used some sort of technique or technology that could not have been used by cavemen in the year TEN THOUSAND BC!

but I know things like Deer are too skittish and jumpy to be domesticate; you can't really cage them in, they don't form packs like cows or horses do so you can't become a surrogate pack leader, Buffalo are too strong to be caged by wooden or even stone fencing, things like that.

Foxes are also VERY skittish and are extremely possessive about their food and almost can't be trained out of it.

Basically there are a LOT of barriers.

While dogs and cats self-domesticated.

[Hanslanda]

Well not common I'm pretty much positive that there have been domesticated deer in history.

Also the domesticated foxes started getting all spotted and stuff like domesticated dogs do and they look so cute. I actually would prefer to have a pet fox than a pet dog myself.

[smjjames]

I'm actually not sure why foxes weren't domesticated earlier; I don't know enough about the soviet program to know if they used some sort of technique or technology that could not have been used by cavemen in the year TEN THOUSAND BC!

but I know things like Deer are too skittish and jumpy to be domesticate; you can't really cage them in, they don't form packs like cows or horses do so you can't become a surrogate pack leader, Buffalo are too strong to be caged by wooden or even stone fencing, things like that.

If you mean like Bison buffalo, then yeah, those are too ornery. Deer do form herds, but they don't form the kind of family units that horses do.

It's usually the more social animals that get domesticated.

Cats are an exception though as they tend to be solitary and their domestication was more of a 'useful symbiosis' kind of thing. They hunt rodents that spread disease and eat our food, we give them a warm and safe place to sleep.

Anyways, offtopicness and all that.

I'm actually not sure why foxes weren't domesticated earlier; I don't know enough about the soviet program to know if they used some sort of technique or technology that could not have been used by cavemen in the year TEN THOUSAND BC!

but I know things like Deer are too skittish and jumpy to be domesticate; you can't really cage them in, they don't form packs like cows or horses do so you can't become a surrogate pack leader, Buffalo are too strong to be caged by wooden or even stone fencing, things like that.

Foxes are also VERY skittish and are extremely possessive about their food and almost can't be trained out of it.

Basically there are a LOT of barriers.

While dogs and cats self-domesticated.

Foxes don't form packs and the biggest social group are a male-female pair, their kits, and sometimes siblings and older offspring, most of the time they're solitary.

Well not common I'm pretty much positive that there have been domesticated deer in history.

Maybe you're thinking of Red Deer in England? Though that's more of a captive bred. There's also the Reindeer (still in the Deer family), which are semi-domesticated.

[Frumple]

I've certainly ran into deer that were pretty much entirely acclimated to humans and human contact, at least. Story behind them usually seems to be being raised from birth or very young in close proximity and regular contact with people. Seems to end with someone eating them, too.