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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4475630 times)

itisnotlogical

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1275 on: February 07, 2017, 03:54:23 pm »

Cool. And nice

The ride never ends
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SaberToothTiger

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1276 on: February 07, 2017, 03:57:15 pm »

they see me lurking

they ptwing
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1277 on: February 07, 2017, 04:06:13 pm »

Meanwhile in the Caribbean: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38896417
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1278 on: February 07, 2017, 04:38:58 pm »

The whole Trump election was fake news. Obama will resume his presidency when he returns from holiday break.
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1279 on: February 07, 2017, 04:40:36 pm »

I have no idea where you're trying to go there at the beginning, but Calexit is a thing. Polls suggest a ~32% in favor thing thus far up from 20% in pre-Trump era polls. Crazier shifts in opinion have happened.

Extreme left social liberalism is all about forcing people to think alike. I'm against the extreme ends in both directions. It's just that extreme left is now BLM and Anarcho-feminists and extreme right are now Westboro Baptists. Nobody takes Westboro seriously. The other side? Well... yeah...
Old but infuriating. Why did you include anarcha-feminists in the "big bad extreme leftists who want to use mind control" group? It's just the intersection of anarchism and feminism - being opposed to the hierarchies of governance, capitalism, and sex.
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Radio Controlled

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1280 on: February 07, 2017, 04:41:44 pm »

Article in the New York Times about the daily life in the White House and some of the power interactions there (might have been posted already, didn't spot it on first glance).
Trump and staff rethink tactics after stumbles
As 'entertaining' as this might seem though, let's not let it distract us from the bigger issues, such as the Besty Devos confirmation. Another decision with the potential to do some real damage, in this case to children.
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MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1281 on: February 07, 2017, 04:45:55 pm »

Wait, so they're claiming that people that hold a critical eye on them are not only wrong, but also lying and secretly must agree with them? In claiming all news that disapproves of them is fake news, they're essentially mandating that nobody should be critical of them.

Yeah, that's not a dangerous attitude for a serious political power...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 04:49:00 pm by MorleyDev »
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1282 on: February 07, 2017, 04:52:21 pm »

The whole Trump election was fake news. Obama will resume his presidency when he returns from holiday break.

Honestly I wouldn't complain about that outcome.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1283 on: February 07, 2017, 04:57:21 pm »


The ostrich impression is getting rather old. A nice case study of how SJWs operate and why any liberal with stuff between their ears should despise it. Which took a grueling three seconds to find via search engine.
Umm...

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First of all, I’m tired of watching people turn into pretentious assholes who think their activism makes them better than everyone else, even the oppressed and marginalised groups with whom they claim “allyship”.
  • I don't do that.
  • I disagree with those who do that.
  • I have called out those who do that.
But since I'm on the left and refuse to call myself a "moderate" in protest of this SJW leftist strain, I'm soooo evil. Yeaaaah no.

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If you’ve ever worked with oppressed groups, such as people who are homeless, abused, addicted or suffering from mental health problems, there's one thing you learn straight away. They usually don't frame their worldviews in terms of academic theories students learn in gender studies classes in university. For the most part, they tend to not analyse their experiences in terms of systemic power and privilege, concepts such as “the patriarchy”, “white privilege”, or “heteronormativity”.

Do you mean... gasp! The oppressed aren't well-educated! Thus, those Ivory Tower Intellectuals are merely pretending to help them when they seek to understand oppression with Big Confusing Words and Concepts.

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While many of these folks know that they're directly impacted by class inequality, they don't sit around pondering capitalism, reading Marx, or tackling the effects of “problematic behaviours”. They are not concerned with checking their privilege. No. They are busy trying to survive. Getting through the next day. Meeting their basic needs. They don't bother with policing their language and worrying about how their words might unintentionally perpetuate certain stereotypes. They are more concerned with their voices being heard.

"If you really cared about the poor, you'd be acting like the poor." ??? And "checking one's privilege" is directed toward the privileged, not the oppressed.

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Yet I witness so many “activists” who ignore the realities of oppression despite saying that they care about those at the bottom of society. They think that being offended by something is equal to experiencing prison time or living on the streets. They talk about listening, being humble and not having preconceptions. Yet they ignore the lived experiences of those who don’t speak or think properly in the view of university-educated social justice warriors, regardless of how much worse off they really are.

Starving-children-in-Africa fallacy. Perhaps we should focus more on the concrete and mundane effects of oppression, yes, but this doesn't mean that trying to change society's opinion is futile or useless or a waste of time. It's a longer-term and more subtle enterprise.

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This isn't to say that we should accept bigotry in any form — far from it. But I would go as far as saying that the politically correct mafia on the left perpetuates a form of bigotry on its own because it alienates and “otherises” those who do not share their ways of thinking and speaking about the world.

"Being anti-bigoted is bigotry itself!" Yeah... although I will admit that the left has its own tribalism, you know, I agree with most of this, Ghandi was wrong. That is, we should not stand and watch as people are oppressed. If I see someone shooting innocent people, I can ethically kill him (unless I have a better alternative). If I see a group of people being oppressed, I can ethically target the oppressors, speaking out against them, calling them unethical, shunning them.

Edit: Wait a sec, okay, critical thinking just kicked in. Reconsidering this section. Hmm. This is a pretty big dilemma - to act in a certain way is unacceptable, to not act is unacceptable. I suppose...

A-ha! I've got it! We fix oppression without being assholes to anyone!

(why was that so hard???)

(The problem is that this could be done to the wrong people - when "sexism" means "criticism of a female's theories", feminism has been perverted and corrupted. But that's like saying that we should never eat food because it might be rotten. We need to do everything we can to use this weapon correctly. We need to stop oppression, and we need to do this the right way.)

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I've witnessed incidents where people have lost their jobs because of mistakes they've made in the eyes of left-wing activists.

I wonder which "mistakes" these were? Funny how vague this is. Like PTTG??, I'm asking for specific and concrete incidents.

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I've seen relationships and friendships destroyed.

And most of them were started by the bigots, I'm guessing. Sometimes the oppressed stand up for themselves. Sometimes a trans young adult cuts themselves off from their hateful family. Sometimes a black person is sick of a friend's incessant racist remarks. I am sorry for the lost relationships and I am happy for those who are free of them.

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I've known people who have been banned from participating in certain places, and become so alienated from “the community” that they are afraid to go out in public at all.

Who were these people, why were they banned, where were they banned from, which communities were these? Tons of vague "the left is DOING BAD STUFF," no sources!!

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This has caused serious mental distress to people I've worked alongside, and has even resulted in suicide. Social "justice" indeed.

Humans are social creatures. If someone is shunned from society, then it will damage them psychologically. This is bad, sure, and I'd prefer not to do this. But I'd also prefer that oppression was ended. Guess who I care about more, bigots or the oppressed?

Edit: Again, thinking critically about this. On the one hand, "using their weapons against them" isn't inherently lowering ourselves to their level. On the other hand, we probably don't need to, and it's best if we don't. So I'd use shunning as a last resort, preferring less-arseholy ways of reducing bigotry. And these ways are probably more effective anyway!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 05:12:32 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalěs »
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...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1284 on: February 07, 2017, 05:09:00 pm »

Also, the distinction between bad left and bad right is often only incidental. There's a definite type of person who latches on to whichever is the establishment point of view (in their social circle) and uses that to beat other people over the head and socially advance themselves. They'll latch on to whatever is the orthodox set of beliefs, so it's not a surprise that some people at colleges use the "liberal consensus" for self-promotion, while others use christian fundementalism for self-promotion, or some in the old USSR used adherence to leninist doctrine for self promotion. In fact, these types don't actually turn out to be any different I think, from what psychological studies have been done.

If a belief is the norm of a group, then sheep will parrot that belief. There are actually some articles discussing the idea of tolerance, and how we should understand this to be relative, e.g. a guy in a rightwing christian fundamentalist town who is slightly less anti-gay than his fellow rightwing christians is in fact showing more effort at tolerance that someone in a liberal culture who just repeats standard pro-LGBT memes. Since tolerance of LGBT is the default if you're in a liberal culture, it's no effort to just go along with that, because you're neither challenging yourself nor those around you, you're just fitting in.
This! So much this!

Quote from: I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup
After some thought I agree with Chesterton’s point. There are a lot of people who say “I forgive you” when they mean “No harm done”, and a lot of people who say “That was unforgiveable” when they mean “That was genuinely really bad”. Whether or not forgiveness is right is a complicated topic I do not want to get in here. But since forgiveness is generally considered a virtue, and one that many want credit for having, I think it’s fair to say you only earn the right to call yourself ‘forgiving’ if you forgive things that genuinely hurt you.
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1285 on: February 07, 2017, 05:10:53 pm »

Gender thread, dammit.

I think doze is just catching up on the conversation over the past two days.

But yes, gender thread if you want to continue discussing that.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1286 on: February 07, 2017, 05:11:08 pm »

Quote
checking one's privilege" is directed toward the privileged, not the oppressed

Not the way it is applied... It is actually a very sexist, racist, bigoted, discriminatory term... but not in a way that is obvious.

Because they take one look at you and go "Well, you are white and male... So you must be privileged, and thus you must walk in eggshells in my presence!"... ERR sorry! that person was actually a Gay Cherokee Irish Man, their oppress-o-meter is higher than you.

What it SHOULD mean is "Hey, maybe you should see how many advantages you have before you put people down" and be able to apply to everyone.

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That is, we should not stand and watch as people are oppressed. If I see someone shooting innocent people, I can ethically kill him

Dang if ONLY Ghandi wrote about ethically killing people in self defense... OHH WAIT! he did!

Ghandi wasn't a super pacifist.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1287 on: February 07, 2017, 05:12:13 pm »

Gender thread, dammit.

neonivek ^

Or philosophy thread maybe. Do we have a philosophy thread?
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1288 on: February 07, 2017, 05:12:36 pm »

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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1289 on: February 07, 2017, 05:13:14 pm »

Gender thread, dammit.

neonivek ^

The Sexuality and Gender thread has expanded into feminism. Do you think it should expand into all forms of oppression and diversity?
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!
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