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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4475224 times)

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44580 on: March 27, 2021, 03:17:04 am »

Yeah, some sort of ubiquitous ID would be less of a concern if the GOP/american conservatism in general could kindly stop existing or somethin', but until that happens at a minimum, you can just kinda' assume any attempt to implement something along those lines is bad faith... 'cause it's consistently been bad faith attempts at voter suppression pretty much the entirety of US history and very much continues to be so in the present.

Current more or less ubiquitous measures regarding voting eligibility largely work just fine as is, and generally could stand to be loosened rather than tightened. We just flat don't have a meaningful degree of that sort of voter fraud, whereas we do have substantial issues with voter suppression and disenfranchisement, pretty much all of it put in place or defended by the current GOP or its predecessors.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44581 on: March 27, 2021, 05:54:38 am »

Yeah, some form of photo ID is required for voting here as well, but that includes things like my bank's debit card (which, admittedly, I do pay something like $30 a year, in $7.50 quarterly payments, to maintain). That's the only cost I have associated with my checking and savings accounts though, so there's that.

Some banks don't have photo ID on their cards however, and in those situations you need something else like a passport, driver's license (which is far less ubiquitous over here), military service ID (I did my year of service in 2011 and the card's good until 2034), or stuff like that. I'm not sure we have an independent state-issued photo ID beyond the passport, I'll have to check...

[Fifteen seconds later]

...yep, we do. Only for citizens, you need to have your passport with you (even if it's expired, interestingly enough), and there's a fee of a little over $65 to get it. Plus it only lasts 5 years at a time. However, it looks like you can get a version of it that works for international travel within the EEA countries +Switzerland, so you can take that instead of a passport if you want.

If you go in to renew/receive both a passport and an ID card at the same time, the fee for both is reduced.

martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44582 on: March 27, 2021, 06:09:47 am »

ID is mandatory over here. Not carrying one at all times can get you a 130 euro fine. You can use either that or a driver's license to identify yourself as a voter. A bank card? Nope, that does not count as valid identification paper.

But the idea of only allowing a driver's license, and not and ID is unthinkable. That would be discrimination, and against the law, not to mention ridiculous, since an ID is an official paper with the sole purpose of being a valid identification paper.

What I understand from the Georgia law change is that a driver's license is now the only way to identify yourself, but only for people who want to vote over the mail. Still unacceptable discrimination of those who do not have a driver's license, especially considering that people without driver's license make up the bulk of the mail votes (because they don't have a means of transportation to get to the ballot box).
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 06:11:18 am by martinuzz »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44583 on: March 27, 2021, 08:11:41 am »

I'm pretty sure that you need some form of ID to open a bank account, etc., so it's not too unreasonable an ask. We need to have a way to make sure that people are who they say they are when they vote. Efforts should be taken to make sure everybody has access to a valid ID.
That last sentence is the clincher. There are various additional hoops that can be set up and then set on fire.

And even when it seems reasonable, it can go wrong. Imagine the time I moved house, and in the process lost both bank (debit) card and driving licence photo-id card in the muddle (though found both later[2]!). To change the address, for my bank, I needed a photo-ID (passport, which was my other option, was also deeply packed who-knew-where), before I could be sure I could request a replacement card. To get a replacement licence, to my new address, I needed to pay (which I still couldn't do with my bank card!). Obviously I had to get someone else to pay, for me, as part of the convoluted process.

Yes, there are long ways to get round it (else nobody would get their first bank-account or driving licence[1]), which rightfully should protect against new identities being conjoured straight out of the æther, but totally unforseen issues such as fire, theft, flood or other forms of bad luck can scupper even the best-laid preparedness. Which I clearly had not had.


There is no absolute requirement to normally carry ID around, over here, not even necessarily your DL when driving. And the British public seem mostly dead-set against there being, except perhaps immediately after some incident where some tabloids (dubiously) run with "This would never have happened if we all carried ID!" as the main thrust of the article.

(The fuss about Vaccine Passports we have at the moment is partly to do with this. Though mostly to do with whether those 'privileged' enough to have been early in the priority list will be the first people able to get past such checks - i.e. will a nightclub have to initially rebrand their '80s Night as Over-80s Night... and how well would Techno work with Zimmers, anyway?)

There have been some localised trials (and, perhaps, it might be a reality in NI, for 'Troublesome' reasons) to make ID necessary for voting, which I haven't seen conclusive results from. Overwhelmingly, though, it was because some of those caught up in the trial had not paid attention that they were sent away (perhaps to return later, equipped, though some may not have), not any actual attempted defrauders who did not pass muster. There is a well-honed mechanism for in-person voting that seems to discourage electoral personation (outside of NI's legendary "Vote early! Vote often!"). While it's hard to determine what level of voter-fraud might be being allowed, (valid) enfranchisement seems to be the main winner, and most at risk from a clamp-down that has unproven need.

Obviously, cultures are different. But I perceive far more non-persons (effectively) being created in the US by making greater demands upon ID than efforts are made to ease the legitimate path to getting some. Already well into this trend, and sloping further and further into it with spurious rationale behind each action/inaction.


[1] Noting in passing that a significant number of people do still not have one or the other, maybe neither.

[2] I'd last used the photo-counterpart of my licence to validate my identity when signing the house paperwork, it was therefore in the bundle of house paperwork, rather than where it should have been.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 08:29:06 am by Starver »
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44584 on: March 27, 2021, 08:22:51 am »

Our ID cards / passports have become rather intrusive. They are mandatory (to be carried on your person at all times) since, what is it, 15 years or so. I blame 9/11, the world became a much more paranoid place since then.
For a lot of people, it is still a sensitive matter. We don't like Ausweisspflicht, it reminds us of the nazi occupation.

The new ID version (since 5, maybe 10 years) not only has photo ID, it has fingerprints now too. A certain major political party wants to add more biometrics to it, like DNA sequence.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 08:27:25 am by martinuzz »
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44585 on: March 27, 2021, 08:28:53 am »

ID is mandatory over here. Not carrying one at all times can get you a 130 euro fine. You can use either that or a driver's license to identify yourself as a voter. A bank card? Nope, that does not count as valid identification paper.

But the idea of only allowing a driver's license, and not and ID is unthinkable. That would be discrimination, and against the law, not to mention ridiculous, since an ID is an official paper with the sole purpose of being a valid identification paper.

What I understand from the Georgia law change is that a driver's license is now the only way to identify yourself, but only for people who want to vote over the mail. Still unacceptable discrimination of those who do not have a driver's license, especially considering that people without driver's license make up the bulk of the mail votes (because they don't have a means of transportation to get to the ballot box).

Ameripol, so: We've also had issues with police not returning people's ID, so the next time they can be charged with not carrying it (which menas you have almost no legal rights, and those you do have will be ignored). It's technically required most places here, but they usually don't make a big deal out of it unless you have the wrong skin color. Same reason the difficulty in obtaining one varies wildly depending on who you are.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44586 on: March 27, 2021, 08:44:47 am »

The other thing in the US is that many people are ideologically opposed to any form of mandatory ID. A lot of minorities fear the potential for them to be used for monitoring and social control, while a pretty large portion of white people associate any "prove who you are" measures from police with jackbooted thugs screaming "vere are your papers!".
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44587 on: March 27, 2021, 09:36:30 am »

The only reason Georgia is clamping down on voters is because otherwise who's in power won't win a fair reelection.
This is the start and the end of it.  It isn't some big-brained political science take like this:
Is it? Historically, most democracies did not work that way. Is free access to the polls in fact a better way to run a democracy than restricting the franchise to landowners, for example, or to adult male Athenian citizens? If so, why? There has to be a concrete reason, it can't just be a feeling.

I actually think it is, but I'm not going to do the work for you, you have to find your own reason.
It's literally only a measure to help one side disenfranchise their opponents.  It goes against the fundamental contract of our democracy, that every person is supposed to get an equal vote.  That contract is what holds our union of people together, so it's terrifying how willing they are to shove people out of it.  When you force people out of a social contract, you don't get to be shocked when they turn radical.

All this from the "free speech" right, shaking my head.
I would imagine that everyone here would agree that giving Russian trolls greater access to the ballot box is bad, so clearly a line needs to be drawn somewhere.

I'm pretty sure that you need some form of ID to open a bank account, etc., so it's not too unreasonable an ask. We need to have a way to make sure that people are who they say they are when they vote. Efforts should be taken to make sure everybody has access to a valid ID.
Haha what?  That's not how Russia interfered with our elections.  That's not even a popular theory.  Russia's interference took the form of spreading misinformation (lies/libel), largely through social media like Facebook.

A lot of deluded chuds tried to vote for Trump multiple times because they ate up the false narrative of election fraud being a common occurrence.  They got caught, because it turns out that we have systems in place to check for that.  obviously.  Voting without photo ID still involves identifying yourself, and if your identity votes multiple times *that gets noticed*.

Picture ID is pretty cheap but it's not free.  Early voting is very nearly free, but coincidentally our less-popular party is excessively opposed to early voting, and keeps trying to legislate it out of existence.  Because they're desperate to keep the power they failed to earn.  Their ideas failed in the marketplace, so they have to further rig the elections to maintain control.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44588 on: March 27, 2021, 11:22:19 am »

The implication I made in my last post being: don't even bother engaging with certain people on this, if they're arguing that the Georgia voter suppression has a sensible motive behind it, they're arguing in bad faith and should not be given the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44589 on: March 27, 2021, 12:40:11 pm »

-
« Last Edit: September 16, 2023, 02:05:11 pm by dragdeler »
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44590 on: March 27, 2021, 03:56:28 pm »

And even when it seems reasonable, it can go wrong. Imagine the time I moved house, and in the process lost both bank (debit) card and driving licence photo-id card in the muddle (though found both later[2]!). To change the address, for my bank, I needed a photo-ID (passport, which was my other option, was also deeply packed who-knew-where), before I could be sure I could request a replacement card. To get a replacement licence, to my new address, I needed to pay (which I still couldn't do with my bank card!). Obviously I had to get someone else to pay, for me, as part of the convoluted process.

Kind of sounds like you've got worse problems than voting at that point. I would hope that a large number of people aren't having that kind of issue every 4 years, or there's a huge societal breakdown.

Haha what?  That's not how Russia interfered with our elections.  That's not even a popular theory.

Didn't mean to imply that, but I figured "dem illegals tryin' tah vote!" would be less relatable to the majority in this thread.

This happens, to an extent:
Quote
In the 2010 survey, 489 respondents identified themselves as noncitizens, and more than 3% reported voting that year, according to the study.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 03:58:09 pm by Bumber »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44591 on: March 27, 2021, 06:04:40 pm »

And even when it seems reasonable, it can go wrong. Imagine the time I moved house, and in the process lost both bank (debit) card and driving licence photo-id card in the muddle (though found both later[2]!). To change the address, for my bank, I needed a photo-ID (passport, which was my other option, was also deeply packed who-knew-where), before I could be sure I could request a replacement card. To get a replacement licence, to my new address, I needed to pay (which I still couldn't do with my bank card!). Obviously I had to get someone else to pay, for me, as part of the convoluted process.

Kind of sounds like you've got worse problems than voting at that point. I would hope that a large number of people aren't having that kind of issue every 4 years, or there's a huge societal breakdown.
Oh, it was temporarily inconvenient. Didn't/wouldn't have stopped me voting, the way things work here, if it had even been (somehow) election time at the time.


Not the point though, even though I'm sure some people have had the rug pulled entirely from under their feet by just such a circumstances, and I (luckily, and for no particular reason) managed to ride the episode.


It's those who might be permanently in the cash-only economy, and little enough of that, even. Discouraged from attempting civic involvement they're entitled to. Never mind building walls against the 'foreign caravans' (whatever happened to them), some would build walls (metamorphical, and physical if they could get away with it) internally like a great big LightCycle or Dots'N'Boxes territory-claim-game over the political map, leaving opponents unable to get out of a wilderness they never wanted to be in.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44592 on: March 27, 2021, 07:08:05 pm »

It's those who might be permanently in the cash-only economy, and little enough of that, even. Discouraged from attempting civic involvement they're entitled to. Never mind building walls against the 'foreign caravans' (whatever happened to them),

Didn't CNN fake that to help get anti-immigrant stuff passed?
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44593 on: March 27, 2021, 08:53:41 pm »

12 voters of millions is ... not exactly a problem.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #44594 on: March 28, 2021, 09:09:41 am »

Trump was also the only candidate to tell his voters to engage in fraud, which (as I said at the time) is one way to guarantee that voter fraud happens.
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