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[Taffer]

I don't think even Grimlocke's mod did anything to prevent tails and wings from being unintentionally armored.

I am summoned!

And indeed I have not, I haven't really considered it a problem since animal people with armor are fairly rare and because most if not all animal people have a different size than humans and dwarves. This means they need to have custom-made armor and I imagine that if your making a tiny adorable suit of armor for your resident badger man that you might include a tail piece.

Its a bit handwavy, especially in the case of winged creatures, but custom-fitting plate armor is already not needed. The tallest, fattest dwarf will fit into the same suit of armor as the smallest, thinnest one. The easiest way of making wings mostly unarmored would just be to add a wing-collarbone (whatever that is called, birds do have an equivalent to collarbones), which leaves them only armored with mail and cloth. The combat report will still be silly, but gameplay effects mostly the same. Unless there's some way you can fool the game into losing track of what bodypart wings are attached to I can't think of any other graceful solution. Attaching wing-collarbones to the spine and capping UBSTEP at 2 would do I guess, but that would make armor unable to cover the forearm if your also using arm-collarbones.

As for the LIMB tag, doesn't adding that just let the creature use the bodypart to wrestle things? I think that armor layering part might be outdated. Armor and clothing will happily cover anything the right number of steps away from the upper/lower body that isn't internal or a GRASP, STANCE or HEAD part. It would be weird to wrestle something with your pinky finger, or your nose. Unless its an elephant. Side note: You could add grasp to trunks. At the small cost of any elephant-men wearing gloves on their trunk.

Anyhow, the gameplay effects of leaving animal people wings/tails unarmored might be something to consider, as they would be effectively useless as anything more than disposable militias. Which would be a bit of a shame given how uncommon they are.

Sorry for summoning you, but I really wanted your feedback because I knew you've done a lot of thinking about this. Thank you.

That's a good point about the tails. I can leave them armored. Shame I can't make upper body armor cover them. I'm still not sure about wings, because I imagine it'd be hard to fly with them armored. I could always add a two-part wing-bone.

This post makes me think that adding LIMB wouldn't add nose wrestling, but I'd need to test things. I obviously can't trust the wiki, as it also claimed that toes and tails can't be armored save by UBSTEP bugginess.

From the sounds of the bug report, capping UPBSTEP at 3 for all upper body armor and adding two-part wing-bones and a collar-bone would prevent any body armor from covering toes at no cost. Then I can make face parts [EMBEDDED] and (maybe, probably not) "limbs" and I'll have IMO minimized armor covering weirdness. And necks would be always protected. Any clothing or armor that doesn't make much sense can just be removed, if it's not too important. Although I don't yet know the full consequences of adding EMBEDDED.

Thank you again, Grimlocke!

[Taffer]

A small suggestion regarding the removal of amphibious mounts: maybe make them all war trainable instead? I mean, the bug fix is perfectly reasonable, but I feel like there is a chunk of fun missing from the fact that certain water-crossing creatures won't appear in sieges anymore.

Done.

'll try "hardened" arrows with a smaller contact area.

Done. Elves use singing arrows now, which are smaller arrows that hit a little harder and have a smaller contact area. They're much weaker than the singing arrows in Sver's mod. Hardened spears have been renamed singing spears, and carved clubs and carved war clubs have been renamed clubs and two-handed clubs, respectively. This also avoids 'metal carved clubs' or 'copper hardened spears', which can both appear as artifacts or if you start adventure mode as an elf.

[Taffer]

I'll take my time to grok things like Wanderer's tiered leather and the Bonfire/Blacklung mod, so I can avoid introducing bugs like I did with Microreduce.

After, looking at some larger mods like Wanderer's tiered leather and Bonfire/Blacklung can start.

What are people's thoughts on Warlord's Bonfire Mod? The "cremate remains to ash" reaction is probably being added, if it doesn't exhibit weirdness in testing. I don't know about the peat changes and the "quarry bush to charcoal" changes. If I add the new, deadly coal and smelting dusts I'd try to tone them down a little. The "bonfire workshop" seems a little silly, but might be unavoidable. It'd all make the game harder and people would probably want to build some means of flooding into your smelting area.

To be honest, my gut says that I shouldn't add it to Revised but I'm finding it too interesting to say no. Plus, this mod is a lot simpler than I expected. (That's a good thing).

While I'm on the subject, reviewing Wanderer's tiered leather isn't going to come for a while. I want to get other things on my Revised todo list done first. I'm interested in Kazoo's furrier workshop, and the two would need reconciliation and testing. I want to take my time before making such invasive changes. The bonfire mod is easy to tear out again if I need to, but tiered leather is painful to integrate and painful to tear out again. I've already done it once, I'm not doing it again until I'm sure.

[Grimlocke]

That's a good point about the tails. I can leave them armored. Shame I can't make upper body armor cover them.

You should be able to do that with any body armor that has LBSTEP 1. It should cover tails the same way it covers the thighs. I've been going through my own mod to get it up to date, add proper inline comments and make some minor adjustments, one of which was adding hipbones. Mainly for consistency and to make bludgeoning something in the lower body have a chance of flooring them, but it would also let normally LBSTEP 0 body armor cover tails I suppose.

I've also made a compatibility patch for this here lovely mod, which was still easier to do than I though. I'll proly put it out somewhere next week once I've had a chance to give it a test run.

On additions like Bonfire and the leather/fur adjustments: I've actually made a fur mod at some point. It was rather... invasive in terms of number of raw edits though, you basically need to manually apply it to each creature where its fitting since no criteria in the body detail plans and such let you do that. Hijacking the tissue layers detail plan entry will add fur to weird things like rats.

There was also the issue of 'fur leather armor' cropping up, which annoyed me enough to eventually discontinue the fur mod.

I'd say the leather system overall is fair game for being 'revised' though. Its really kinda weird and full of worm leather in its current state. Making a simplified leather kind of thing would make adding fur fairly trivial if done right though. If you decide to do these at any point, it'd probably be best to plan for both from the start. Using creature variations for various 'classes' of animals such as 'large furred game' or 'medium sized hairless' and whatnot would probably be the least maintenance intensive.

The Bonfire mod is cool but also kind of falls outside the category of 'somewhat broken vanilla stuff that we're unbreaking', its more of an expansion/addition to the game. It looks like a fun mod though and I can't really tell you what you should and should not include

[Taffer]

Thank you for your thoughts!

I've been going through my own mod to get it up to date, add proper inline comments and make some minor adjustments, one of which was adding hipbones. Mainly for consistency and to make bludgeoning something in the lower body have a chance of flooring them, but it would also let normally LBSTEP 0 body armor cover tails I suppose.

I'll be happy to see an update! I should probably rename my in-progress femurs to hipbones. I'm looking forward to seeing it, especially as your hipbones are likely much better than mine.

I've also made a compatibility patch for this here lovely mod, which was still easier to do than I though. I'll proly put it out somewhere next week once I've had a chance to give it a test run.

I'm sorry. I genuinely feel bad. At least v1.7.0 will still be available for download from the repository, and will (probably) continue to work for this release cycle. I understand if you don't want to update your patch, though. (The GitLab compare UI is broken, but putting it in the URL directly works).

Code: [Select]

revised $ git diff --stat v1.7.0...master
...
49 files changed, 4177 insertions(+), 3672 deletions(-)
The WIP master is also still in a bit of a broken state at the moment. At least many of these changes are inconsequential: deleting sponsor remarks, renaming creature IDs, rewriting my own comments, cleaning up a bit of whitespace, etc.

Maybe I should rethink my stance on "cleaning up the RAWs a little", which would help a bit.

[Grimlocke]

Hehe no worries, I gave your master branch version a run and found it still spews a few errors (some of the giant creatures borked), so I'll leave that for when you have things tidied up. Making the patch wasn't a huge amount of work since I'm not editing the creature files (beside adding profession names) or tissues. There's all of 6 overlapping files, the body_default one I already had a patch for and the rest was easy enough to figure out with doing a diff on both versions.

Also yeah, femurs are thigh bones and have no business being in a lower body unless your quadruped or a kangaroo

Which is something I've vaguely considered, making quadruped bodies more detailed, but I've so far not seen much of a cause to since they don't really wear armor and tend to be incapacitated fairly easy as is by upper/lower body hits. Maybe Toady will add some way of adding horse armor with the upcoming release, but I kinda doubt it (although I do hope so).

Anyhow I ran into some minor issues and ideas for improvement with my own mod so that release time will drag on for a bit more.

[Taffer]

Lots of work. I just pushed a commit:

Code: [Select]

37 files changed, 1780 insertions(+), 2000 deletions(-)

I hope you know what you are doing. I regretted doing exactly this, every time Toady One released a major update with a lot of raw changes. Or whenever different tileset versions came into play, with the need to compare tile numbers.

Maybe I should rethink my stance on "cleaning up the RAWs a little", which would help a bit.

I felt bad so I've completely reversed course on this. I just finished putting Revised on a MASSIVE "diet".

* I completely restored all of Toady's comments and the original creature IDs.
* When I gendered all of the descriptions I'd replaced all of Toady's descriptions with a comment. This was unnecessary and has all been reverted. The gendered creature descriptions will still override the vanilla description, and now if you happen to stumble into a casteless creature it will still have a description. This change alone brought me hundreds of lines closer to vanilla raws.
* fish don't need to have PET_EXOTIC. They're hard to train anyway. Reverting this modest mod fix brought me closer to the vanilla raws over a couple dozen lines.
* I reverted most of the modest mod MAXAGE changes. Here's why it was included.

Regarding MAXAGE for giant creatures, I was very careful with these and considered it one of the most important changes in the entire mod, so I'm sad to hear that it was removed. The reason I consider it so important is that incubation/pregnancy length is fixed across all species, which makes [MAXAGE:1:1] giant creatures literally impossible to tame - which sucks when you embark in a savage jungle and happen to roll all your giants as giant vermin, especially since War Giant Mantises are so friggin sweet you guys; and War Giant Brown Recluse Spiders? They'll wipe the floor with anything organic. I'm sorry it had to be all over the place, instead of in the creature variation, but you know why that was necessary so whatevs.

Every giant creature with a MAXAGE below 5 still has its age lengthened, as per the above quote. The vast majority of creatures didn't need this fix, though. Reverting all of it brought me closer to the vanilla raws by another couple hundred lines.
* I undid most of the "MODEST BODIES" improvements. "Right forearm" sounds nice, but is inconsistent with "Right upper arm". Thighs, calves, and abs are NOT upper legs, lower legs, and lower bodies respectively, only part of them. And most people only consider abs the front part. And insects already had their lower bodies renamed to abs, which was a minor bug with modest bodies ([BODYGLOSS:INSECT_LOWERBODY] wasn't doing anything). This brought me closer to the vanilla raws by another couple hundred lines. Note that monkeys still have hands (not "front feet"), and quadrupeds still have forelegs and hind legs and such.
* the Modest Mod changes to secondary attacks have been redone to minimize raw changes. This cleaned things up by another hundred or so lines, and made scrolling through the changes in c_variation_default significantly less tedious.
  - MOUTH_BITE_SECONDARY_ATTACK and MOUTH_BITE_EDGE_SECONDARY_ATTACK were simply removed. These are pretty much exclusively for insects in Revised. I removed biting from a few insect humanoids I'd added it to as well. I don't mind insects biting as a primary attack. Insect people are just creepy that way.
  - BEAK_BITE_SECONDARY_ATTACK, HOOF_SECONDARY_ATTACK, and TAIL_SECONDARY_ATTACK have been removed, and the change has been made in their normal attack variations instead. I searched through the RAWs and didn't find a single instance where these made sense to me as a primary attack.
  - TUSK_STAB_SECONDARY_ATTACK has been simply removed. If your animal person has tusks, I don't see what's wrong with using them. Go to town, warthog people. You keep being you. Who needs punching and kicking when you can spear people with your face.
  - TALON_KICK_ATTACK and TALON_KICK_HIGHVEL_ATTACK have been removed. I was on the fence about this one, but I decided I just didn't think it was worth the huge amount of lines changed. TALON_KICK_HIGHVEL_ATTACK wasn't actually used anywhere.
* the new files Revised added have almost all been merged into the bottom of their respective vanilla files. This doesn't save any lines, but is much cleaner to install and remove. The only point to punting this stuff into a separate file is if I'm not editing the original, and in almost all cases I am anyway.
* there were dozens of completely useless extra [APPLY_CURRENT_CREATURE_VARIATION] tags I'd added.
* all comments have been made inline comments, saving a few dozen lines of churn. I also merged some of the noisier two-line changes into one line each for more diff savings.
* I took the time to re-order my changes into a more standardized location throughout the raws, with a nice side effect that they appear in clusters more. So when you're hitting "next change" in WinMerge and hit a block of new changes, you'll skip past the whole block in one go. I can't believe I spent two hours rearranging tokens for this.
* underground animal people have KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED again and aren't playable anymore, just like vanilla. Saves two dozen lines or so. Listen to DF Talk 3 for why these animal people aren't playable.

The upshot is that Revised v1.8.0 will be significantly easier to compare to vanilla than Revised v1.7.0, proving my dire prophecies about diff bloat wrong. This should apply even if you're just searching for "Revision:" comments. I mean it'll still be painful though. I'm not a miracle worker. And the majority of Revised is perfectly intact, give or take a some small fixes.

I need to sort out the new collarbones and femurs.

This is done. Properly. Every humanoid capable of wearing things now has collarbones and hip bones, with an appropriate number of steps to their hands and feet so that armor and clothing works the same as before for everything. Even Gorlaks^[1]. Every humanoid without bones has collarbones renamed to shoulders and hip bones renamed to hips, because, beautifully, with the sole exception of bronze colossi none of them have both HUMANOID_JOINTS and NOBONES (HUMANOID_JOINTS already includes shoulders and hips). So bronze colossi get a special bronze colossi body because they're assholes. I also made sure to change the material for boneless animal people, because without it insect people (for example) would have internal shoulders made of chitin, not muscle. I had to give sponge men and plump helmet men two part arms, but that makes sense to me anyways. Hard to swing a sword without an elbow.

I still need to insert two new internal limbs to separate wings more (armor should never cover wings, IMO), but with this necks and tails will always be covered by armor and clothing and not a single vanilla creature should exhibit weirdness. I think. Randomly generated creatures and mod-added creatures might end up with bones when they shouldn't have any, but that's a minor side effect and it's one I'm happy to take.

There's no changes to the creature raws apart from the boneless humanoids. Because I was obsessing over leaving the Revised raws as clean as possible, I used conditional creature variation tags to make this a 1 line diff for each affected animal person, rather than 3 lines.

So moth men (for example) have:

Code: [Select]

[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:BONELESS_HUMANOID:MUSCLE]

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE_VARIATION:BONELESS_HUMANOID]
[CV_NEW_TAG:BODYGLOSS:SHOULDER]
[CV_NEW_TAG:BODYGLOSS:HIP]
[CV_NEW_CTAG:1:MUSCLE:BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BONELESS_RIBS:MUSCLE]
[CV_NEW_CTAG:1:SPONGE:BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BONELESS_RIBS:SPONGE]

Code: [Select]

[BODYGLOSS:SHOULDER:collarbone:shoulder:collarbones:shoulders]
[BODYGLOSS:HIP:hip bone:hip:hip bones:hips]

Code: [Select]

[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BONELESS_RIBS]
[BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:RIB_TRUE:ARG1:100]
Almost all of the boneless humanoids pass in MUSCLE as an argument, and their (usually) chitin collarbones and hip bones get turned into (internal) shoulders and hips made of muscle. Sponge people pass in SPONGE of course, and plump helmet men pass in MUSHROOM just because it seems to require an argument, even if it's ignored (their bodies were already all mushroom). It's all tested in Arena mode.

Finally, Sver may find it interesting/annoying that fingers now have bone in them again, not cartilage. I'm wary of including this fix because Toady considers it fixed and I just can't find much public discussion on excessive finger pain still being a problem. I mean, I've reverted plenty of things though. Not sure why I'm bothering to mention this one.

[1]: I hate Gorlaks. I'll probably quietly remove them sometime and hope nobody notices.

[DWARFFRAWD]

Can i use these revised files in 44.12 version? is it compatible?

[Taffer]

Query; Does this change invader dodging behavior?  I'm running this out of Meph's pack, and all invaders are dancing around my traps like The Matrix.  Cages work fine, but spikes (x3) & giant axe blades (x2) have yet to land a single hit.

No, I don't change invader dodging behaviour at all. That's just the newest version. I should note that in early DF talks (3 or 4?) Toady talks about how he dislikes the way traps make fortresses completely immune from invaders and work unrealistically well. I agree with him.

Can i use these revised files in 44.12 version? is it compatible?

Does this work with the 44.12?

It should, yes. There's some RAW fixes that Toady has in the new releases that aren't in the current version. I'm not in a great place to check right now, though.

Nothing cruicial really. Updated credit info (e.g. commentaries) and fixes for some typos in creature names and descriptions.

[Taffer]

The next version still won't be out for a little. There's lots of play testing to do, because there's some fixes picked up from the Modest Mod that I want data on to see if they work. I need more testing of the changes I've made, and there's changes I want to make that will also need data. Let me know if you're interested in helping out with the testing!

There's also things on the todo list that I want to get done, and I don't see a reason to rush the release. Especially when I'm going to need to create new wiki pages and redo all of the documentation before I release, because things have just changed too much and better documentation is important anyway.

[Meph]

Time to update the version I have in the tileset... 

Nice to see that you are still improving this so much, it's great.

I've recently been made aware that aquatic animal people, like squid men for example, air-drown. Which I deem weird, since they get the animal-man body, which includes legs; aka a form a land transport. Would you consider removing AQUATIC from them and changing it to AMPHIBIOUS, or adding NOBREATH? Otherwise no one will ever see aquatic animal men anywhere.

[Taffer]

Time to update the version I have in the tileset... 

Nice to see that you are still improving this so much, it's great.

I've recently been made aware that aquatic animal people, like squid men for example, air-drown. Which I deem weird, since they get the animal-man body, which includes legs; aka a form a land transport. Would you consider removing AQUATIC from them and changing it to AMPHIBIOUS, or adding NOBREATH? Otherwise no one will ever see aquatic animal men anywhere.

I'd consider waiting until the full v1.8.0 release, but it depends on whether you want to support the Revised mod in full or just in part. There's still description rewriting on my todo list, however, and those are presumably the best feature for people. The current master should be error free though, so if you do update your tileset off of it I strongly recommend writing down or bookmarking the current latest commit and downloading the files. Then, changing things again to v1.8.0 later should be minimally painful, because you'll only need to worry about the differences between current master and v1.8.0, which isn't going to be a huge list.

Thank you for the report! I'll look into that. Sounds like an easy fix. While I'm at it I can add innate swimming skills if they're needed to the new HUMANOID_AQUATIC creature variation I'm writing, to take a crack at fixing this bug.

[Meph]

No worries, thank Splint, he pointed it out.

If the descriptions are the most beloved feature, maybe you can think about PREFSTRINGS too. Dwarves like "x for their y".

In Masterwork DF I added... a couple hundred I guess, like this: Dog:

Code: [Select]

[PREFSTRING:loyalty]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:unwavering loyalty]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:wet tongues]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:steadfast relationships]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:dependability]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:intensive search for scents]
(I checked, I added 936 in total.)

That way dwarves like the same things, but for different reasons. One PREFSTRING is picked at random. If you want, you can import the ones from MasterworkDF.

It's a nice way to add a few little easter eggs/hints to DF lore, like carps being deadly:

Code: [Select]

YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:murderous, psychotic tendencies]
YES_PREFSTRING[PREFSTRING:unified hatred of all land-dwelling creatures]

[Taffer]

I spent 4 or 5 hours yesterday integrating much of Sver's combat mod (without the new items) before getting distracted. Merging it isn't what takes time, it's separating out only the vanilla portions and, most importantly, documenting everything with comments. By the time I got back I realized I was a bit more than halfway through a major overhaul with tons of "diff noise", none of which I'd tested properly. This will require some thought, because it's a lot of changes to maintain and sort through. I'm thinking of making traps and weapons generally weaker and lighter, buffing the tools that can be used as weapons, and then weakening adamantine somewhat to accommodate. I might also make things require more metal, just like Sver does. I'm just wary of including hundreds of new RAW changes suddenly. I like the general idea of making combat a bit less overtly deadly and making armor both more desirable and expensive, but perhaps I can do that in a more lightweight manner.

The temptation is/was there to just merge it all because I've worked hard on it and because I'm excited about the idea, but some of the big Modest mod fixes I've reverted were also well thought out and interested their respective mod authors. Seems a bit rich to take all of them out to make maintenance easier but then add something big right back in, particularly if I haven't tested and thought carefully about which pieces are important to me. Any thoughts on how I should approach combat would be appreciated.

Also, is there any value in adding NATURAL_SKILL:SWIMMING:5 to aquatic or amphibious humanoids? Reading the bug reports leaves me a bit confused on the subject. Is that even used, if the creature has swim innate?

[DWARFFRAWD]

How calculate the crossbow's firing rate and penetration?

Lower shoot_force value, faster crossbow firing rate?
Is it inverse proportion?

Crossbow SHOOT_FORCE in revised is 600.
In vanilla, it is 1000.

I'd thought higher shoot force value, stronger range weapon damage.