Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Weizen1988]

For starters, can we upload screenshots directly to here, or is there a preferred location to upload them to? I dont have much experience with this. But i need some help with marksdwarves, and its easiest to show a picture.

Basic text description: My marksdwarves directly next to a fortification somehow cant shoot at humans 9 squares away from them on same z level, if I walk them out of cover and fight out in the open hall, they shoot just fine, but from the defensive area ive built, they cant seem to fire at all. Bridges are lowered, only things between marksdwarves and humans is a line of fortifications (which dwarves are next to) and a grate a few squares out to stop humans approaching.

[steel jackal]

use imgur to upload pictures, you cant directly upload to here.

also, ive heard that there cant be a gap in the ground between your marksdwarves and their target. so the grates might be screwing you up.

however i cannot confirm this as i personally do not use marksdwarves as they are rather buggy

[Fleeting Frames]

I've had marksdwarves shoot fine at keas, but is it a wall grate? I think those act like fortifications (which doesn't matter if your marksdwarves are skilled enough, but still).

[Weizen1988]

Well, ive got both a gap in the floor, and wall grates, and not terribly skilled marksdwarves, but im building a pit for all the fire imps and magma crabs that are clogging up my traps, figure they can shoot at them to level up. Anyway either of those might have been doing it. Ill try to take a screenshot when im more free.

[Weizen1988]

Right, so game crashed and now im back before I built the thing, so if I rebuild it ill take a picture, or ill just redesign it and try something new.

[Weizen1988]

Was able to rebuild it pretty fast, all the materials were nearby, so I just remade it.

Anyway, the gates when im using it are all down (open), those are indeed wall grates and the ramps are downward, i havent deramped it yet.

Its one of the LNP tilesets, I forget which one, makes the game less gibberish to me, gives it an ultima kind of feeling.
So its three squares open space (paved with wood just to piss off elves), a downslope, line of wall grates, then raising bridges, and fortifications, open space next to fortification, then a statue line im still rebuilding. (the bridges are up in this picture, thats what that open space between grates and bridge is about.)



Edit: wiki says grates dont block bolts, but ill try removing them anyways, see if that was it.

[Fleeting Frames]

Fortifications don't block bolts either, they just prevent the firing itself from non-adjacent unskilled dwarf - if one of those were to fire at something and miss, the resulting bolt could still fly through a fortification to hit enemy behind it.

[Weizen1988]

Fortifications don't block bolts either, they just prevent the firing itself from non-adjacent unskilled dwarf - if one of those were to fire at something and miss, the resulting bolt could still fly through a fortification to hit enemy behind it.

Ok, ive removed the grates, but nothing has attacked in quite some time, so I wont be able to check if it worked. If I can trust the elves, theres some goblin army rampaging around that has wiped out a huge number of settlements, so it should come by sooner or later, I can test on them maybe, do the world a favor.

[YetAnotherLurker]

I'm pretty sure grates block bolts (and other projectiles), just not fluids. Fortifications are the best option for firing on the same Z-level, but if you want to try to fire straight downwards, I think you've got to use Floor Bars instead of Floor Grates. I've always found it easier to build my firing positions on the same Z-level, or at most firing at a shallow angle, rather than try to work out diagonal firing lanes.

[Weizen1988]

I'm pretty sure grates block bolts (and other projectiles), just not fluids. Fortifications are the best option for firing on the same Z-level, but if you want to try to fire straight downwards, I think you've got to use Floor Bars instead of Floor Grates. I've always found it easier to build my firing positions on the same Z-level, or at most firing at a shallow angle, rather than try to work out diagonal firing lanes.

I was worried about things jumping/climbing through the fortifications, or just walking up to them and returning fire on my dwarves, the best I could kit them out in was iron armor, and I dont understand this whole "69 robes, 30 tunics, 90 cloaks, 3 mail shirts so on so on" armor stacking and layering that everyone seems to do, I have trouble getting my dwarves to wear socks and boots on a good day. so I suspect a stiff breeze to be able to kill them, from reading it sounds like anything short of steel is a joke, wanted some way to stop the enemy from approaching as a result, so they can just shoot from impenetrable cover because the wiki implies that fortifications are regularly passed through by creatures for various reasons, made me extremely nervous, with 10-20 defenders I cant afford even minor mistakes when every attacker comes in 300+ kind of numbers, even a small breach may very well let in more attackers than I have dwarves in the whole fortress.

So I guess really the goal of this thread, someone help me design a bunker that can be shot out of, but which cannot be fired upon or reached by enemies, and/or show me some of your defenses and explain how they work. Ive had success using a rim of floor around high walls, since we cant smooth constructed walls, and obsidian casting my whole castle sounds like a lot of work, but then the enemy can just walk underneath that floor to where I cant shoot at them, or just close enough that the floor blocks line of sight or at least that is what I would expect them to do immediately, shame we dont have boiling oil or tar, magma is a bit excessive and hard to pipe around, rather dangerous to my olive trees too, or I could just dump that on them. I suppose I could make the walls taller and build in like, a stone stockpile on retracting bridges to drop rocks on their heads, just thought of that while writing this.

[imperium3]

I was worried about things jumping/climbing through the fortifications, or just walking up to them and returning fire on my dwarves, the best I could kit them out in was iron armor, and I dont understand this whole "69 robes, 30 tunics, 90 cloaks, 3 mail shirts so on so on" armor stacking and layering that everyone seems to do, I have trouble getting my dwarves to wear socks and boots on a good day. so I suspect a stiff breeze to be able to kill them, from reading it sounds like anything short of steel is a joke, wanted some way to stop the enemy from approaching as a result, so they can just shoot from impenetrable cover because the wiki implies that fortifications are regularly passed through by creatures for various reasons, made me extremely nervous, with 10-20 defenders I cant afford even minor mistakes when every attacker comes in 300+ kind of numbers, even a small breach may very well let in more attackers than I have dwarves in the whole fortress.

Enemies cannot pass through fortifications unless the z-level above is mined out/open air (in which case they can easily climb over). The only other circumstance in which they can pass through is if the fortifications are completely submerged in water (which I believe is a bug).

You don't need to worry about armour stacking etc., that's something you *can* do but there is really no need for it. It probably slows down dwarves massively due to the weight of all that gear. So long as they are wearing a full set (mail shirt, breastplate, greaves, gauntlets, boots, helm, shield) of metal gear (any metal) they will be OK in melee combat. High quality steel or adamantine is better (especially against hostile archers using metal bolts), but not absolutely necessary. Really, the most important thing is the skills on your dwarves, as a highly-skilled warrior will block or dodge most attacks anyway. So get your militia training as often as possible. Highest priority if you do have good metals is melee weapons, especially swords and axes. A copper battleaxe will just bounce off even shitty goblin armour, a steel battleaxe on the other hand...

Now, as to your question regarding defences. You cannot make a bunker which can be shot out of but impossible for the enemy to fire back. However, you can make it very difficult for them. Archers firing through fortifications will probably miss (i.e. hit the fortification) unless they are standing next to it. So as long as the enemy can't get their archers to stand next to your fortifications you will mostly be OK. A decent ditch in between (remember that enemies can climb soil and rough stone walls easily, so smooth the stone or construct walls from blocks) will do just fine. The big one to be careful of is enemy sharpshooters, elite bowmen etc. These have very high archer skills and will just shoot straight through the fortifications like a sniper with an optical scope. So don't engage those guys at range.

If you have a water source it's not too hard to make a basic drowning chamber. You just need a way to make sure the enemy can't escape, like a raising bridge, then divert the river or aquifer onto them. Do be careful to make sure the water can't get into your fortress even if the enemy destroys whatever bridge or door is keeping them out. A lot of forts have fallen due to accidental floods...

[Fleeting Frames]

I've known of few things passing through sealed fortification-boxes: flying objects, liquids, and your dwarves climbing out. Enemies will not get in by them.

For a bunker that can be shot out of but can't be fired upon, you could use fast-toggling doors to briefly give your archers line of sight and then closing the door on enemy return fire, if there's any. However, this bears a substantial FPS cost - I recall one case of FPS going from 40 to 30 with just three flashing doors.

Other options have been to give the enemy archers a different, closer target, and to have enemies pass beneath your archers so that they're firing at their backs and if any elite archers pop up they're the closest rather than most distant enemy (behind a meat wall).


That said, if you're worried about breaches, you could fail-safe or layer your defences - only a pathetic thief will not be at least slowed down if not stopped entirely by locked door or hatch, which allows you time to pull the lever or whatnot.


For enemies hiding under your overhang, with archers one dual-purpose solution would be to have outlying archery towers accessed only by underground routes.


'course, if you're open to using various traps, could escalate up to "who needs to send out any defenders anyway" with that. For defending a pass or small areas, they're generally superior to military. Raising brides, water, magma, regular trap buildings, minecart grinders/bouncers/shotguns, encasing, previous enemies, even weather....Lots of ways to not risk your dwarves.

Military role is more large-area defence and counter-surprise, as well as giving best cross-training. Archers in specific excel against flying, glass cannon and unarmoured targets.

As for armour, if I'm, say, emergency-drafting a miner who was military migrant against giant dingo pack, I'd rather have them not wear even clothes than give them metal armour to arrive too late, and maybe even pass out in from exhaustion and get their skull punched in. A shield, a weapon capable of piercing enemy defences and defensive skills superior to enemy offensive skills go 95%+ of the way.

Though as far as metal armour goes, I do upgrade straight to single-layer steel from perhaps leather/bone as (cross)training/"clothes"...Because well, why not if they have the skill to wear it? Steel's easy enough to make if you have the resources.

[Weizen1988]

I've known of few things passing through sealed fortification-boxes: flying objects, liquids, and your dwarves climbing out. Enemies will not get in by them.

For a bunker that can be shot out of but can't be fired upon, you could use fast-toggling doors to briefly give your archers line of sight and then closing the door on enemy return fire, if there's any. However, this bears a substantial FPS cost - I recall one case of FPS going from 40 to 30 with just three flashing doors.

Other options have been to give the enemy archers a different, closer target, and to have enemies pass beneath your archers so that they're firing at their backs and if any elite archers pop up they're the closest rather than most distant enemy (behind a meat wall).


That said, if you're worried about breaches, you could fail-safe or layer your defences - only a pathetic thief will not be at least slowed down if not stopped entirely by locked door or hatch, which allows you time to pull the lever or whatnot.


For enemies hiding under your overhang, with archers one dual-purpose solution would be to have outlying archery towers accessed only by underground routes.


'course, if you're open to using various traps, could escalate up to "who needs to send out any defenders anyway" with that. For defending a pass or small areas, they're generally superior to military. Raising brides, water, magma, regular trap buildings, minecart grinders/bouncers/shotguns, encasing, previous enemies, even weather....Lots of ways to not risk your dwarves.

Military role is more large-area defence and counter-surprise, as well as giving best cross-training. Archers in specific excel against flying, glass cannon and unarmoured targets.

As for armour, if I'm, say, emergency-drafting a miner who was military migrant against giant dingo pack, I'd rather have them not wear even clothes than give them metal armour to arrive too late, and maybe even pass out in from exhaustion and get their skull punched in. A shield, a weapon capable of piercing enemy defences and defensive skills superior to enemy offensive skills go 95%+ of the way.

Though as far as metal armour goes, I do upgrade straight to single-layer steel from perhaps leather/bone as (cross)training/"clothes"...Because well, why not if they have the skill to wear it? Steel's easy enough to make if you have the resources.

If charcoal works in steel making, and I can figure out how to tap this magma tube without killing everyone, I can get steel (I can obviously make steel without lava, but its convenient excuse to learn magma control. Problem I suspect will be tapping it where I actually want it, and doing so safely and positioned such that I can build forges without anything creeping into my fortress.

[Fleeting Frames]

It works in steel making, you can use digging from beneath a bridge or digging + another dig 1 job elsewhere once the miner has started digging (+ safety water trench right behind miner if they still catch on fire), and as to having magma sources safely on hand, nothing can get up through floor grate or move through a statue without being thrown (true, magma sea has building destroyers, but if you build statue right before a downward ramp they'll be unable to topple it).

(Or if you're content with natural flow, can just use pond zone/bridges to seal up afterwards. Note that natural flow can take months to cross 200 tiles 4+/7 deep.)

[Goatmaan]

You have a weapon your forgetting. The king of battle, artillery. In my tests ballistae have a steady 200 tile range, and boast the ability of going thru multiple opponents.(and trees,dwarfs,animals) drawback : same z level, no up/down firing.
Train siege operators on the 230 tile range catapult, boasts no hit dwarfs, rids fort of excess rocks. Same z firing. Fairly weak, single opponent hits.
 May take some work to funnel the bad guys, but once funneled the ballistae will mow them down. At ranges over 20 tiles the operators won't even see the enemy die. 

  Goatmaan