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Author Topic: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over  (Read 21790 times)

Gigalith

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #195 on: December 12, 2016, 05:54:46 pm »

Here's that short postmortem.

I started with a F2S3B7 Demon Macaw, with the hope of summoning some Onaquis, and maybe doing some Horror Artillery too. One moment after I had sent my disciple in, I realized I had one too few Astral to actually get Send Horror. But, good news, the Demon Macaw has three slots, including a helm. (I'm picturing a little starshine beanie atop Polly's enormous parrot head).

However, I had a bigger issue: I did not know you couldn't rush Blood 7 in the same you rush, say, Blade Wind. Much research in blood, albeit useful, was "wasted" in that there was no way I was getting to Blood 7 in the early or even the middle game. This was not helped by how I tended not to buy researchers when I had the chance (dude, it's worth it.)

First turn, I realized I was not only two UW provinces away from a throne, but I had native UW units, one of whom was an H3 priest! Shortly after conquering nearby indies, I sent AH! IT'S A FROG MAGE! down below. I should mention that I was doing quite well at expansion--perhaps the best in this game considering what everyone else has been saying. Bats can often snipe commanders and turn a battle nearly bloodless (for your own side, of course.)

I should mention there are two kinds of bats--warriors (stealth bats) and city guards (actually useful in combat bats). All of them are absurdly cheap in resources and Gold--I was regularly fielding and losing armies a hundred strong and it didn't even matter to me. Actually, I was more miffed when I lost one of the throne stealing armies because I couldn't get a replacement fast enough, not that it hurt the purse.

Anyway, major mistake: I didn't get a blood economy set up immediately. Xibalba is very good about blood--there's plenty of B1 mages with a hunting bonus, with a chance of getting a B2+hunting bonus hunter. It was only when I was actually in a desperate struggle with Man, then Arco, that I finally had a good blood hunting base. Troea was my original planned base, but it happened to fall to Man almost immediately. It was raided so often and fought back and forth it's basically fantasy Stalingrad. Pollygrad? Anyway, had I the resources, I probably would have had Rain of Toads on repeat until Man was a disease-ridden 100+ unrest wasteland. As it was, I kept running out, so I spent it on other things.

Man/Arco and we had a kind of minor cold war prior to the actual attack. I kept thinking that the horde of undead by my borders meant something--and lo and behold, it did. Much of the early war I spent fretting as I watched apparently unstoppable armies fight through my territory. Then I discovered the joys of raiding and began the War of Cartographical Insanity. Protip: attack two adjacent provinces--if you lose one, your dudes will retreat to the others.

The big MVP goes to a spell I never actually cast: Solar Eclipse. It's essentially a Fire and Astral version of Darkness--which meant Polly could cast it. And my bats do wonderfully in Darkness. Once I realized I could cast it, along with Bloodletting and other powerful spells, I decided I didn't need to freak out even if they besieged my capital. (Bats are very good at sieges, by the way.) This lead me to prepare spells such as (actual) Darkness, Earthquake, Iron Bane... Meanwhile, Agartha actually came and killed Arco's army for me, so I went and made other plans...

Meanwhile, some of my raiders had landed near Man's underground fortress, and after some thought I decided to attack it. Magister Spookthorne could conceivably die in our dominion, after all. I ended up successfully sieging said fort, which let Agartha's army get there. A siege and one or two epic battles later, Agartha exclusively possessed the caves (except for that one UW province I never got to.)

I'm not sure when exactly we thought of the throne steal. We had four of the thrones within easy access, and all we needed were two more. Much simpler than winning a conventional war against a conventional war powerhouse nation.

I had spotted Troban had only 1 PD and an otherwise defenseless temple. One squad of stealth bats smashed it and did quite some raiding before Arco finally tracked them down. I also realized I could forge any Holy booster artifact, which I could stick on an H2 Ajaw. Stealthy throne claimer! ...then Jilladilla pointed out I could just forge a Winged Boots and a Shademail Haubregon to stick on a Bacab. FLYING STEALTH FROG GOD was born.

Later, I saw that Arco had once again only 1 PD at Troban. We spilled many electrons on planning the perfect attack and, as mentioned, we ended up changing it mid-attempt twice.

More on that second time: I had set up two Bacabs (FLYING STEALTH FROG GOD and NINJA SKY TOAD DEITY) to bring flights of 80-100 stealth bats each deep into Arco's territory, along with Earth gems, boosters, Darkness... Then Dominions' giant ruleset reared its head. It turns out that even if there are no patrollers, sufficiently poorly stealthed armies can be discovered anyway. It must roll those open-ended dice regardless. Anyway, they had poor stealth in the first place, minus 1 for every unit... Both of them were discovered on the same turn.

But they were adjacent, and even though one Bacab's army was destroyed, the Bacab itself fled to Javal Kish (where I had accidentally won.) Our last ditch attempt was throwing all I had left there at Troban, and Dendrite teleported to the other throne.

Again, GG. This was a great first multiplayer game. It really is it's own beast in MP.

EDIT: "short" postmordem, yes.
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Jilladilla

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #196 on: December 12, 2016, 06:45:17 pm »

I want to thank you all for the game. As far as post mortems go, my big mistake was trying to push against Agartha underground, rather than hole up and wait for them to open the second front. I had a lich. Defensive deadlock is good when you have a lich. I got impatient and second-guessed myself into losing a fortress far too early in the war!

On analysis of man as a nation, they are very good and deeply frustrating at the same time. I only recruited about 5 units out of my lineup, and 2 of those were purely to support a stealthy raiding hero and otherwise would not have been used. Your highest random is 50% on magisters and magisters arcane, and the random on arcanes has a high chance to be basically wasted on fire. On the other hand, between power of the spheres, summon X power and their basic paths, magisters arcane are capable of terrifying shenanigans in the field. On the copper arm, relying so heavily on a very old, very fragile mage can and repetedly did bite me. As did the fact not a single flaming arrows cast I scripted all game went off, which I will confess was slightly dissapointing. I will likely play this nation again some time, though there are many others I'd like to try.

Good game to all. Grateful I was able to play.
Your Magisters (Just gonna shorten Magister Arcanes as they're the ones that are actually viable) are actually pretty darn strong for a non-cap restricted mage, cost efficient too, also your script for Flaming Arrows was something like PotS->Pheonix Power->Flaming Arrows yeah? Noticed with my F2 Alchemists that the scripting thingie yells at me unless I give them an extra gem, why? I don't know. Also how do you think I felt with my Alchemists who rolled D1 (and to a lesser extent W2, seriously, how many of those did you see me field? Very very few, if any.), sure they can summon iron corpses for me but if I wanted that I would've bought Reanimators!

But yeah your combination of Arrow Fend, Lightning magic and x-bows (although that's only because they sit back and shoot, Agarthan Infantry are practically arrow proof, even against bolts (I have no issue with my x-bows firing into a melee after all, in all their +2 damage -2 precision (compared to normal x-bowmen) glory)) gave me a headache, E2 mages don't grow on trees for LA Agartha after all.
Also yeah I perfectly agree with your derp of fighting against Agartha in the caves without overwhelming odds... Also I think I almost got your Lich outside your dominion there early on.... Think I messed up a bit on execution though or was a little to slow?.. Can't remember, to lazy to check.

That said, I want your opinion on Man vs Agartha, Archer Edition (which, if I remember right, was what our early fights basically were).

(EDIT: All said, I would be up for another game, I won't even pick Agartha this time! Probably.)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 06:48:37 pm by Jilladilla »
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Hatman

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #197 on: December 13, 2016, 03:03:40 am »

Your Magisters (Just gonna shorten Magister Arcanes as they're the ones that are actually viable) are actually pretty darn strong for a non-cap restricted mage, cost efficient too, also your script for Flaming Arrows was something like PotS->Pheonix Power->Flaming Arrows yeah? Noticed with my F2 Alchemists that the scripting thingie yells at me unless I give them an extra gem, why? I don't know. Also how do you think I felt with my Alchemists who rolled D1 (and to a lesser extent W2, seriously, how many of those did you see me field? Very very few, if any.), sure they can summon iron corpses for me but if I wanted that I would've bought Reanimators!

But yeah your combination of Arrow Fend, Lightning magic and x-bows (although that's only because they sit back and shoot, Agarthan Infantry are practically arrow proof, even against bolts (I have no issue with my x-bows firing into a melee after all, in all their +2 damage -2 precision (compared to normal x-bowmen) glory)) gave me a headache, E2 mages don't grow on trees for LA Agartha after all.
Also yeah I perfectly agree with your derp of fighting against Agartha in the caves without overwhelming odds... Also I think I almost got your Lich outside your dominion there early on.... Think I messed up a bit on execution though or was a little to slow?.. Can't remember, to lazy to check.

That said, I want your opinion on Man vs Agartha, Archer Edition (which, if I remember right, was what our early fights basically were).

(EDIT: All said, I would be up for another game, I won't even pick Agartha this time! Probably.)

The flaming arrows script was 1 pearl, 5 rubies by the time I gave up on it, PotS, pheonix power, flaming arrows, yeah. The AI maybe doesn't think defenders are archers or something? But still casts wind guide on 'em?

As for the archery duels, you were winning early, because your archers were cheaper, routed sooner and thus avoided more casualties, and you had higher resource provinces to draw from. Setting defenders to hold and attack rear, which actually made them target your back ranks where your lighter armoured crossbows, magicians and sappers were, helped a fair bit, as did moving out of the caves, which took us from matching prec to me leading by 3 points, at which point I was winning the shooting matches, but only if I actually stopped shooting your frontline, which wasn't a great deal, just a better deal than losing - agarthan infantry being crossbow proof is a matter of their hitpoints as much as their protection, so not shooting them is worse than shooting them.

Arrow Fend and storm helped more, as you mentioned, but i'll note that it was primarily by letting me ignore all your Xbows and shoot your frontline, with storm in particular doing a certain amount to punish you for evoking with your low prec mages into melee lines when I'd softened up your side. If you'd used more skelespam and less evo, storm would have been far less useful.

Lastly regarding the cold war undead Gigalith mentioned - all from an interactable event. Couldn't have built them in any other province.
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #198 on: December 13, 2016, 03:35:50 am »

Thanks for the post-mortem(s).

As for hosting, I could if it is a slow round (48 h hosting), otherwise I recommend someone with a bit more time.
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chaoticag

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #199 on: December 13, 2016, 04:08:40 am »

Slow hosting sounds good to me honestly. With the festive season coming around the corner it might be for the best anyway.
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Jilladilla

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #200 on: December 13, 2016, 07:19:13 am »

The flaming arrows script was 1 pearl, 5 rubies by the time I gave up on it, PotS, pheonix power, flaming arrows, yeah. The AI maybe doesn't think defenders are archers or something? But still casts wind guide on 'em?

As for the archery duels, you were winning early, because your archers were cheaper, routed sooner and thus avoided more casualties, and you had higher resource provinces to draw from. Setting defenders to hold and attack rear, which actually made them target your back ranks where your lighter armoured crossbows, magicians and sappers were, helped a fair bit, as did moving out of the caves, which took us from matching prec to me leading by 3 points, at which point I was winning the shooting matches, but only if I actually stopped shooting your frontline, which wasn't a great deal, just a better deal than losing - agarthan infantry being crossbow proof is a matter of their hitpoints as much as their protection, so not shooting them is worse than shooting them.

Arrow Fend and storm helped more, as you mentioned, but i'll note that it was primarily by letting me ignore all your Xbows and shoot your frontline, with storm in particular doing a certain amount to punish you for evoking with your low prec mages into melee lines when I'd softened up your side. If you'd used more skelespam and less evo, storm would have been far less useful.

Lastly regarding the cold war undead Gigalith mentioned - all from an interactable event. Couldn't have built them in any other province.
Err HP? Agarthan humans are pretty standard, just -2 precision and 50% darkvision, everything else is human average. (Blindfighters and Entrance Guards excluded of course, but those guys are elites using Full Plate, even crossbows have issues with that.)
Their crossbow-resistance has EVERYTHING to do with their armor + kite shield combo. (I will admit that claiming crossbow-proof was a bit much. But still very resistant.)
And yeah, you're very much right, I went too crazy with Alchemists, would've been better served with shunting my Enchantment research elsewhere this match. (Or actually using skelespam. Or more exploding skeleton horses... Didn't really try hard enough on those to get an opinion...) And trust me, I didn't really think on the horrific precision, as an Agartha player, friendly fire happens often anyway, but your troops tend to be able to take it better than theirs... (No seriously, I didn't think anything of it. There's a good chance that you tilted the balance from 'Well it's hurting you more than me...' to being actively harmful to my odds of victory... And then there was Mini who did Storm + Mist, now if only I got Darkness off in those fights, 1 precision for EVERYONE!)

All in all, made too much of a departure from tried and true army support and far too much into blasting. Thank you for your analysis. (Again, seriously, thank you, LA Agartha was the Agartha where my strategies were still mostly theoretical, had very little practice against actual players with it.)

(Also Archers CAN'T be given Fire Rear orders, if you gave them Attack Rear they would forget their bows and charge... But irregardless, you actually came to a different conclusion than me, I took less casualties once I switched to heavier x-bows due to them actually being able to take hits (and gold issues)... The light x-bows are really only for use against those you don't expect to perform counter-battery and expansion... They die so quickly if they get attacked or shot at...)
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #201 on: December 13, 2016, 08:15:00 am »

As for me, I was sort of screwed from the outset by positioning, but some messed-up move orders caused me to agrro Agartha early, and, well... :P

The Sirins came out late, I only managed to mass-produce them thanks to a generous donation from Marignon, and ultimately they didn't help a whole lot. Dream seduction just doesn't work that well. :\

All in all, it was fun while it lasted. Hopefully if I'm in the next game I'll actually be able to not be the first one out. Again. :P
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Jilladilla

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #202 on: December 13, 2016, 08:57:54 am »

As for me, I was sort of screwed from the outset by positioning, but some messed-up move orders caused me to agrro Agartha early, and, well... :P

The Sirins came out late, I only managed to mass-produce them thanks to a generous donation from Marignon, and ultimately they didn't help a whole lot. Dream seduction just doesn't work that well. :\

All in all, it was fun while it lasted. Hopefully if I'm in the next game I'll actually be able to not be the first one out. Again. :P

.....I wasn't angry at the expansion parties meeting up, it was when you continued into my territory that caused you to gain my aggro... That was seriously due to you derping on move orders?... Damn, that REALLY could've changed the course of the game, as according to Hatman, the Arco/Man v Agartha/Xibalba War was caused because we were fighting you instead of Ulm... (Yes, I was gearing up to fight you then cag.)
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #203 on: December 13, 2016, 09:32:45 am »

As for me, I was sort of screwed from the outset by positioning, but some messed-up move orders caused me to agrro Agartha early, and, well... :P

The Sirins came out late, I only managed to mass-produce them thanks to a generous donation from Marignon, and ultimately they didn't help a whole lot. Dream seduction just doesn't work that well. :\

All in all, it was fun while it lasted. Hopefully if I'm in the next game I'll actually be able to not be the first one out. Again. :P

.....I wasn't angry at the expansion parties meeting up, it was when you continued into my territory that caused you to gain my aggro... That was seriously due to you derping on move orders?... Damn, that REALLY could've changed the course of the game, as according to Hatman, the Arco/Man v Agartha/Xibalba War was caused because we were fighting you instead of Ulm... (Yes, I was gearing up to fight you then cag.)
Yep. I don't know why, must've (once again) left-clicked to drag the map with the army selected and didn't notice the move order before hitting "end turn". Or just plain failed a spot check when looking the map over.

You know how it goes. One small derp for Bogarus, one huge war for all Man-kind. :P

edit: I would've maybe gone for damage control and pleaded accident if I wasn't so bad at diplomacy in this game. See, I didn't want to double-cross you. Because I was trying to get Ulm to go past my east and punch you in exchange for non-aggression with them. But then that backfired as well, and the rest is almost literally history. ::)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 09:42:01 am by Sean Mirrsen »
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #204 on: December 13, 2016, 10:15:54 am »

It turns out that even if there are no patrollers, sufficiently poorly stealthed armies can be discovered anyway. It must roll those open-ended dice regardless. Anyway, they had poor stealth in the first place, minus 1 for every unit... Both of them were discovered on the same turn.

If they have at least 15 PD (PD gives passive patrolling of PD-14, remember), and your stealth troops have 50 or less stealth, if you bring enough they'll find you. Every troop that has stealth of 50 or less makes the army as much easier to find as if the patrollers had another AP 10/Prec 10 unit (or another point of PD) patrolling.
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Gigalith

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #205 on: December 13, 2016, 10:30:23 am »

We definitely were in <15 PD provinces. ("quite well organized") Which is why I was so baffled when we were discovered. One province had no commander that could be patrolling, so...

In the manual itself, there's an open-ended 2d25 for both sides of the discovery roll. 20 base stealth from the haubregon - 80 or so bats... I figure we were just crazy lucky before.

I suspect the reason 1 PD provinces don't randomly discover and eat scouts is that beating 50 + 2d25 (open-ended) with just 2d25 (open ended) is just so unlikely it almost never happens.

I don't object flavor-wise, by the way. You figure a giant frog wearing magical chainmail and a horde of batmen with spears would attract the notice of peasants eventually. I'd just like it to be in the manual.

EDIT:

Lastly regarding the cold war undead Gigalith mentioned - all from an interactable event. Couldn't have built them in any other province.

I believe you. Jilladilla insisted they were, too. But it kept me on edge (which is part of the reason I was building a fort at Troea.) And, lo, SURPRISE UNDEAD ARMY KEKEKE.

The other fort I was building as my part of the cold war was at Tirennea. It would have finished in time, except that I didn't realize that one river was frozen. Whoops.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 10:35:29 am by Gigalith »
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #206 on: December 13, 2016, 10:39:04 am »

"quite well organized" is actually 6-18PD, so it probably was 15+...
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #207 on: December 13, 2016, 10:41:15 am »

Suggestions for Theme, Map, Mods, Age & Rules for the next host?

Optimally we'd have a backup hoster that I share the password with (chaoticag?).

Since this was a team game, the next one could be a regular game. Hybrid could be a thing, too - with 2x2 teams and a bunch of independents ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Mini

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #208 on: December 13, 2016, 10:42:59 am »

as according to Hatman, the Arco/Man v Agartha/Xibalba War was caused because we were fighting you instead of Ulm... (Yes, I was gearing up to fight you then cag.)
That was part of it, but things were already kinda tense due to us being in the caves (which you appeared to not like, and were slightly aggressive about), and us (or maybe just me) not realising just how bad Ragha/Marignon had it. If I'd noticed the latter earlier, and you hadn't said what you did about the former, then we probably would have been allies.

I suspect the reason 1 PD provinces don't randomly discover and eat scouts is that beating 50 + 2d25 (open-ended) with just 2d25 (open ended) is just so unlikely it almost never happens.
0.08% chance. So scouts in <15PD (assuming the passive patrolling can't go below 0, can't be bothered to look it up) provinces have a half-life of 866 turns.

Suggestions for Theme, Map, Mods, Age & Rules for the next host?
Better to decide that either in a new thread or in the OG Dom4 thread, I think. Make it obvious it's a new game, for people who might play but aren't paying attention to an already running game.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 24 - Year ??? It's over
« Reply #209 on: December 13, 2016, 10:48:42 am »

Suggestions for Theme, Map, Mods, Age & Rules for the next host?

Optimally we'd have a backup hoster that I share the password with (chaoticag?).

Since this was a team game, the next one could be a regular game. Hybrid could be a thing, too - with 2x2 teams and a bunch of independents ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I'm going to repeat my vote for Dawn of Bridges v3 as the next map. And also agree that it should be taken to a new thread or the main Dom4 thread.
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India
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