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Use Windows and love it

7 (63.6%)

Use Mac and love it

1 (9.1%)

Use Linux and love it

0 (0%)

Dual-Boot and love it

1 (9.1%)

Hate my life, operating systems, keyboards, the internet etc.

2 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 10

[Phmcw]

Peoples have been using windows for years. They are used to running .exe they don't understand to fix issues they don't understand based on error that they don't understand. If that doesn't work they run an anti-virus. If that doesn't work they reinstall.


A topical work-flow under windows is full of dumb workarounds, but it has no logic and therefore users relies in comfortable trials and errors.
It might be frustrating, but it require no conceptualisation. You don't have to know anything but that such .exe fix shuch problem.
Actually it's incredibly hard and rare to go past that state and to have any idea of what's happening really. X cause Y is "I clicked that and this happened". If you're an expert you may go a level deeper and know that x program cause y error but you cannot go much deeper.


In Linux, the system is clear and understandable, so users that likes to understand things learn, and provides solutions that have a simple (or complicated) explanation, with a clear path from problem to solution. That require you to conceptualise a number of things and that is tiring. Actually I found that peoples tend to hate that, in general.
That's like a deep deep pool of knowledge waiting to swallow your attention whole, and user tend to share part of this knowledge between themselves.
Linux users becomes Linux hobbyist quickly and start to fiddle with their systems. They write scripts and then provide those as solution, which put new users in contact with unfamiliar knowledge and concepts quickly and may overwhelm them.


Linux strength is its weakness, windows weakness is its strength.

[flame99]

New install? Good luck finding all the necessary drivers!

How often is your average user going to need to do this?

Dual boot with another system on UEFI? Write a script to actually be able to use the bootloader you want to use, instead of the one Windows writes into the UEFI on each startup.

Again, how often is your average user going to need to do this? Or even know they CAN do this?

Install some program? Those installers might look good at first sight, but in comparison to a proper package manager they're a pain in the ass.

Once you get to know your favorite package manager, well, fair enough. But is your average user really going to be installing things often enough for this to become important and worthwhile to them?

Uninstall some program? Yeah, you might think that it's easy, but only if you don't care about a clean registry. And you should care about a clean registry.

Well, most people don't care about a clean registry. Most people don't know what the registry is or how to keep it clean.

Use multiple programs at once? Now I gotta dick around with one tiny panel that is hardcoded to be in a specific place, not to speak that I can't add additional ones and even if I could having multiple desktops is just way better and more comfortable to use than a frikkin' single panel.

...Do you mean the task bar? Because you can move that now. Also, it really is not a big enough deal to concern most users.

Want to work at something uninterrupted? Nope, Windows updates will happen when they want, not when you are ready to take a step away from the computer. Not to speak of how updates require a damn restart every damn time. What the fuck, what year do we have?

This, however, I'll concede. That's dumb as fuck.

[Reelya]

You've always been able to move the taskbar, since Win95 days. It snaps to the top, bottom, left or right of the screen. It's just a click and drag thing.

[Antsan]

New install? Good luck finding all the necessary drivers!

How often is your average user going to need to do this?

More for Windows than for Linux, and at least once, which for Linux is maybe 2 hours and for Windows often enough closer to 8.

Dual boot with another system on UEFI? Write a script to actually be able to use the bootloader you want to use, instead of the one Windows writes into the UEFI on each startup.

Again, how often is your average user going to need to do this? Or even know they CAN do this?

Good, that is a bad example for most users, but still one that does exist for users who are not able to solve that problem without professional help. There are some non-savvy users wanting to use Linux and only keeping Windows for some games, and those are pretty much fucked.

Install some program? Those installers might look good at first sight, but in comparison to a proper package manager they're a pain in the ass.

Once you get to know your favorite package manager, well, fair enough. But is your average user really going to be installing things often enough for this to become important and worthwhile to them?

Users who care about the differences in the interfaces of Linux and Windows probably do install stuff all the time. If you're only using pre-installed software, Linux is better for other reasons, like multiple desktops.

Uninstall some program? Yeah, you might think that it's easy, but only if you don't care about a clean registry. And you should care about a clean registry.

Well, most people don't care about a clean registry. Most people don't know what the registry is or how to keep it clean.

Yeah, many people also don't care for security or good passwords or keeping their personal data out of the Internet. An unclean registry is a liability, even if you don't know about it. Windows tends to slow down with time, and that often enough can only be fixed by a reinstall, which brings us back to that first point about how often average users need to do a full system install.

Use multiple programs at once? Now I gotta dick around with one tiny panel that is hardcoded to be in a specific place, not to speak that I can't add additional ones and even if I could having multiple desktops is just way better and more comfortable to use than a frikkin' single panel.

...Do you mean the task bar? Because you can move that now. Also, it really is not a big enough deal to concern most users.

Have you ever used multiple desktops?
I'm sure most users do have a browser and an application to work with running simultaneously, and even at this point multiple desktops are a huge win.

Okay, I was wrong about the hardcoded place, but it's still only one taskbar. I'm using three panels when I can – one for constantly visible stuff like the clock, system monitor, system tray and quickstart buttons; one for open windows (which this way can use the full length of my desktop) and one auto-hiding one for menus and less frequently used quickstart buttons.

[Mephisto]

You've always been able to move the taskbar, since Win95 days. It snaps to the top, bottom, left or right of the screen. It's just a click and drag thing.

Meanwhile on Ubuntu I can't move the taskbar without going to a random forum post telling me to apt-get install two things and then run them.

New install? Good luck finding all the necessary drivers!

How often is your average user going to need to do this?

More for Windows than for Linux, and at least once, which for Linux is maybe 2 hours and for Windows often enough closer to 8.

Seriously, when's the last time you installed Windows? It's never taken multiple hours.

[Antsan]

You've always been able to move the taskbar, since Win95 days. It snaps to the top, bottom, left or right of the screen. It's just a click and drag thing.

Meanwhile on Ubuntu I can't move the taskbar without going to a random forum post telling me to apt-get install two things and then run them.

Like I said, Ubuntu is full of cruft and hand-holding. A few years ago stuff like this was simple and straightforward, but then they "modernized" their window manager, which basically meant "remove all kinds of options, because those are way too confusing to most users". It became more like Windows and Mac. That's almost exactly what they did, that was their stated intention.

[Max™]

Oh god, ok, THAT is something which keeps trying to trickle into the windows ecosystem but I never hear about it going very far.

Yes, if linux was as widely installed as OSX or W# it would have a larger attack surface and thus wouldn't be all "virus? did you cough in the hard drive?" like it is now.

BUT EVEN THEN, the computer downstairs had to be regularly scanned and cleaned out because, bless her heart, the mother-in-law is 65, and trying to explain why clicking certain things, opening certain things, agreeing to prompts that pop up, and all the other ways she loads tons of bugs onto the system are bad ideas... is kind of a lost cause.

It's not that she can't learn, it's that she has too much access to the guts of the system, sure she can't go in and admin screw stuff up, but she has way too much access to critical parts of the operating system which can then be exploited.

Windows has their UAC stuff where you gotta escalate certain things, but the userspace guts are too tied into the system guts for my taste.

Linux I can sudo something if I'm just doing a trivial task, installing something, mounting a drive, changing a config setting, but to go in and screw around with the stuff in the root directory I have to put in a different password (which, is by choice, I am root, but it's good practice) to screw around with the shit in there as sort of a reminder that no, you don't need to screw around with it.

Everything a user does on their computer can be ran just fine with a link to the necessary libs and bins, and the shit in their /home/theirname folder.

When I screw shit up (and I do regularly) it is cool because I very rarely get the bug to go in and screw around with shit that could fuck over the install via breaking / itself.

On windows when I screwed shit up I was never quite sure exactly where the damage ended, I was never quite sure that I had tracked everything down, and I never really felt like I owned the system. I spent a lot of time hunting around in the registry, I took the windows 7 starter installed on the notebook and ended up unlocking everything and slapping shit in to replicate a full pro version, but it was fragile, changing something was prone to send a spiderweb of cracks off through the registry, lots of shit to track down in the file system proper, and even though I had control, it was never the same sort of confidence that I get from my arch install I'm on now.

It doesn't do shit I don't want it too, it doesn't surprise me, if it breaks it's because I broke it, and I can take track down all the damage and repair it and move on.

That's nice.

I don't gotta worry about the mother-in-law screwing up the computer downstairs anymore either, she does the same shit she always does, but on Mint she isn't operating in a high risk userspace, if she does get a ton of crap on there, she says something to me, I poke at it and clear it, show her how I did it, that's all she wrote.


...oh god, and defragmenting! WTF!

[Antsan]

Seriously, when's the last time you installed Windows? It's never taken multiple hours.

Not that long ago, actually.
I maybe should have stated that "install Windows" for me includes "hunt down all drivers, install them and install all the basic programs". Yes, that does take multiple hours. Hours upon hours of searching for drivers, updating preinstalled drivers, pulling updates, restarting Windows maybe 3 or 4 times…

Installing Debian is just "put in CD, enter a few necessary informations, wait, restart, install some basic tools", and you're done. That is, if you're using netinstall, because that already installs an updated system. If you're not using netinstall you gotta do an update once. On Windows? Yeah, no, that's not possible, because updates always require a frikkin' restart, and because they are discrete units.

[Sergarr]

New install? Good luck finding all the necessary drivers!

All requires drivers are on disks that get delivered together with the computer.

Dual boot with another system on UEFI? Write a script to actually be able to use the bootloader you want to use, instead of the one Windows writes into the UEFI on each startup.

Never needed anything like that. You already have one OS, why do you need another one?

Install some program? Those installers might look good at first sight, but in comparison to a proper package manager they're a pain in the ass.

I literally never had any problems with installers in Windows, they work like a charm.

Uninstall some program? Yeah, you might think that it's easy, but only if you don't care about a clean registry. And you should care about a clean registry.

Never cared about clean registry, why should I care about clean registry?

Use multiple programs at once? Now I gotta dick around with one tiny panel that is hardcoded to be in a specific place, not to speak that I can't add additional ones and even if I could having multiple desktops is just way better and more comfortable to use than a frikkin' single panel.

Literally never had any real problems with that, even when I've had dozens of windows open in Windows XP. Now, since Windows 7 and the way all similar programs cluster together under one icon, it's literally as easy as pie.

Use a program that wasn't installed by an administrator when you're not an administrator yourself? Forget it, it's impossible.

Since I'm always the administrator of my computer, that's not a problem.

Want to work at something uninterrupted? Nope, Windows updates will happen when they want, not when you are ready to take a step away from the computer. Not to speak of how updates require a damn restart every damn time. What the fuck, what year do we have?

I turned off all auto-updates a long, long time ago.

I can see that you'd want to use Windows for compatibility, which is what I do. User-friendliness, though… That's just plain ridiculous.

It's perfectly user-friendly, you're just being a very demanding user. Linux is indeed good for you, but for us, normal people who don't care about silly stuff like "clean registry", Windows is clearly the best solution.

[miauw62]

Seriously, when's the last time you installed Windows? It's never taken multiple hours.

Not that long ago, actually.
I maybe should have stated that "install Windows" for me includes "hunt down all drivers, install them and install all the basic programs". Yes, that does take multiple hours. Hours upon hours of searching for drivers, updating preinstalled drivers, pulling updates, restarting Windows maybe 3 or 4 times…

Installing Debian is just "put in CD, enter a few necessary informations, wait, restart, install some basic tools", and you're done. That is, if you're using netinstall, because that already installs an updated system. If you're not using netinstall you gotta do an update once. On Windows? Yeah, no, that's not possible, because updates always require a frikkin' restart, and because they are discrete units.

Strange, last time I installed Debian I had to spend three hours hunting down firmware files and figuring out how it wanted me to install them, all from forum posts across three websites with some dead links.

Also, Windows updates requiring restarts isn't that unreasonable. Being able to install updates without the entire system being up and running probably massively simplifies the programming.

[pisskop]

it took piss 8 hours and 3 reinstalls but he got linux to work and kicked the last of his lingering gaming habits.

no more midnight civ games, no more total war binges, no more relapses into skyrim or longing for the goodolddays.

but i wouldnt even try to swap my mother over.  most kiddies use tablets or phones, use videya games or want to show off their expensive macbook and drawings.

people are happier paying for convenience, and the innards of consumerism is comforting to them

[Phmcw]

All requires drivers are on disks that get delivered together with the computer.
ant to use, instead of the one Windows writes into the UEFI on each startup.

Didn't you ever install a windows on an older machine, or a new windows on an old machine?
If not you barely use computers.

Never needed anything like that. You already have one OS, why do you need another one?

... ok you don't really use computers, I understand.

Never cared about clean registry, why should I care about clean registry?

Yes, why should you OS main cofiguration source be clean? Surely it cannot cause any bug down the road... nevermind, you'd reinstall.

Since I'm always the administrator of my computer, that's not a problem.

So you never use your computer in a multi-user setting.

You barely use a computer and don't know how to use it. You're the archetypal windows consumer.

Also, Windows updates requiring restarts isn't that unreasonable. Being able to install updates without the entire system being up and running probably massively simplifies the programming.

So why is windows the only os that require that? OSX, Linux, Solaris, AIX,... don't but windows antiquated piece of shit codebase make it impossible, that's why.

Windows has organically evolved from a single user os hacked to fit some contract. It has no structure and is a nightmare to expand. Hell they are now making it into an unholy UNIX hybrid to try to fix it.

[Antsan]

Also, Windows updates requiring restarts isn't that unreasonable. Being able to install updates without the entire system being up and running probably massively simplifies the programming.

"Windows programmers are too lazy to implement what literally every package manager for Linux has managed to implement. You know, you need to pay for quality and user friendliness."
What kind of argument is that supposed to be?

All requires drivers are on disks that get delivered together with the computer.

I don't have a disk drive, because that is literally be the only thing I'd use it for.

Never cared about clean registry, why should I care about clean registry?

1. Because an ever-growing registry gobbles up space.
2. Because an ever-growing registry slows down your system.
3. Because unclean uninstallers often leave information in your registry. This can go as far as that some program fucks up its registry entries, rendering itself unusable even after a reinstall – have fun finding anything in the registry! Yes, some of the programs fucking themselves in that way were games.

Since I'm always the administrator of my computer, that's not a problem.

Yes, that is a problem. Well, not the installing part, but the part where you're always administrator.
Figure for instance you want to try out some game you downloaded somewhere on the internet, from some fishy website.
On Windows, you basically have two options:
1. Don't try out that game
2. Be made fun of because you installed some program from an unknown source.
Option 3 of the Linux user is "don't install it but just execute it as non-administrator", which is the safe option that still allows you to play that game.
Of course that's more a problem of installer/package only programs than a problem of Windows. For some reason package managers still don't support user-space installs.

I turned off all auto-updates a long, long time ago.

On Linux I can keep them on, so getting all that security goodness, without having to bother with forced restarts ever. You basically either leave glaring security holes in your computer or you have to do updates manually every day. I don#t see where this is more user-friendly.

Look guys, I'm not saying Windows is unusable, I am saying it is less user-friendly than modern Linux distributions. It's got less features that enable the user to do something, it's got more features that force the user to do something and in general it's supposedly "modern" interface design is miles behind what even XFCE, one of the most bare-bones desktop environments for Linux, provides.
This new and sleek GUI of Windows10? That's basically as usable as a command line with pretty pictures instead of auto-completion, only that it's got a way more restricted set of commands. The taskbar is perfectly usable, yes, but outdated. After over a decade of the concept becoming normal in the Linux world it still doesn't have multiple desktops. Given that everyone who can, uses them I'd wager they're not just a neat gimmick but actually better than grouped window buttons, because, you know, XFCE has those too.

[Infinityforce]

People, people!
Let us celebrate our differences!
Weren't we all Winblows users at some point? Aren't we all guilty of ignorance?
The great thing about Linux is that it forgives our previous sins: we die to the old way of bondage, and become reborn into freedom.
Let us not blame each other's operating systems, picking out faults. Let us commemorate everything that Windows has contributed to the development of technology, software, and computing systems.
Doesn't every OS have something to teach? Just look at all the distros of Linux!
We are strong because of our variety!

Every OS has some quirks and oddities, but that they exist, are functional and support our daily lives is something to be grateful for. Especially if you're a Linux user, but also if you use Windows, or yes, even Mac.
We are lucky and blessed to have such powerful tools at our fingertips, and it's our responsibility to use them wisely and to RESPECT THE DECISIONS OF OTHERS!
Even if they end up not being able to unlock the full potential of their computers because they didn't install Linux.

Who doesn't want out-of-the-box functionality? Who really cares what goes on in their system, as long as it runs?
It's a bit like cars: Some users want the most out of their machine and want to know everything going on under the hood.
Others just want to get from A-to-Z and don't care about fuel cost, efficiency, modifiability or pollution etc.

And of course, Linux users can have their cake and eat it too, since they can Dual-Boot into either Windows or Linux at a whim!
I still can't believe something so good exists! Actually, that's the point of this thread: It's criminal that Linux is unheard of.
I very much enjoy being a part of something so... pure... something so un-evil...

But we should take care, lest we become like what we hate
"Take care when you look into the abyss,
For the abyss also looks into you
And take care when you fight with monsters
Lest you become a monster"

[Max™]

Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if I tried sudo pacman -Syu somepackage -r /home/myfoo/bar now.

I think that was actually part of the weird install method I did, mnt a drive into a ramdisk, chroot to it, pacman -r /tmp/var/mnt/etc and so forth?